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What government that has an active military cares about the lives of their soldiers beyond their utility value? I don't see how the US is different in that rega

by masijo 2y ago

What government that has an active military cares about the lives of their soldiers beyond their utility value? I don't see how the US is different in that regard.

simion314 2y ago
That is the point, if you sacrifice the soldiers lives you should do it for something valuable, even using pro-Rus maps Russia is gaining at best something less then 1 square kilometer a day and has 1000+ dead or wooded, I am sorry for you disillusions with USA but in civilized countries nobody would think that 1 soldiers live is worth 5000 square netters of field. Sure probably they are sacrificed not for that land but for buying time for Putin, maybe Trump or other miracle move will save him. So from Putin's POV 1000 soldiers for 1 more day on the throne is a price he can pay, in a democracy this would have ended a long time ago.
- thriftwy 2y ago
  > maybe Trump or other miracle move will save him Save Putin from what? By default, from now on Russia just retains the (formerly) Ukrainian lands it controls and integrates them in Russia. There's no deadline to that process, even if Russia stops gaining any land at all while still having to lose some number of people on the front line, basically indefinitely. I can see that assertion in the Western media that Ukraine has an option to "not agree" to unfavorable terms, such as the ones voiced by Putin. The underlying assumption is that Putin has to disengage eventually, so the Ukraine can just wait it out. But unless some miracle saves the day for Ukraine, Russia is not getting out of these lands at all. After all, Russia is busy paving roads and issuing Russian citizenship in these areas.
  - ardaoweo 2y ago
    I tend to agree with you. If what Putin has done so far doesn't cause a massive internal revolt, then selling what they've gained by now as a victory shouldn't be too hard either. Attitudes (and apathy) of the Russian population is the most astonishing thing about this whole conflict, and something that should be remembered when dealing with the country in the future, even after Putin.
    - thriftwy 2y ago
      Russian people begin to realize that 1991 and the following decade was very unfair to their nation and (the current) country, and the amount of humiliation and loss during that period dwarfs the losses of Russo-Ukrainian war so far. I don't say that fighting this war in the current state was a good decision, far from it. It is also kind of throwing out good money after the bad. Still, I don't see Russians parting with whatever paltry gains they just had in exchange for a lot of their spilled blood.
      - simion314 2y ago
        >Russian people begin to realize that 1991 and the following decade was very unfair to their nation and (the current) country Post communism was hard for everyone else too, but we (Eastern Europe) do not invent conspiracies about Israel and CIA to explain the corruption and incompetence of our leaders. For our case the politicians could blame the previous guys but in a dictatorship it is hard to blame the previous guys since it means blaming yourself so dictators have no choice then blame soem external force like Israel, CIA,LGBTQ, Satan.
        thriftwy 2y ago
        The only country in Eastern Europe in Russia-comparable situation is Hungary, and the humiliation in question is when it had lands with Hungarian people in them taken away from it in Treaty of Trianon. And as you can see it's the least happy camper right now. That and, outside the EU, another troublemaker that is Serbia. Russians do not see the existing borders and existing ex-Sovier political layout as fair or in any way beneficial to them.
        simion314 2y ago
        >Russians do not see the existing borders and existing ex-Sovier political layout as fair or in any way beneficial to them. And you agree with this Rusky? They do not like that other nations are not longer part of their empire ? Or that the countries East of Berlin are not under their evil influence ? If yes, then I am sorry for you, maybe the next generation can find peace in the fact that empires and colonialism are history and could focus on their own country, they have resources they only need competent leaders and a better mentality. Ukraines were dumb to not enter in NATO in EU with Poland, they were too pro Ruzzians now the stupidy costs them, look at Poland and look at Ukraine economy.
  - simion314 2y ago
    It is not free for Putin to keep this land, drones will fly and kill his men , destroy his refineries, infrastructure etc. Gazprom has giant loses for the first time, Putin also needs to protect himself from the oligarchs that he screwed over with his imperialistic dreams. Ruzzia's economy is not doing well, if you notice in all the demands for peace Putin includes "please, please remove the sanctions". From what I see onlyne Zeds fray to God that Trump will save their SMO from failure, hopefully there are still soem repuplicans with brains around to prevent any truly zetarded decision.
ardaoweo 2y ago
Generally the US does a pretty good job training and keeping their grunt soldiers alive, and evacuating them if wounded. Russia really hasn't done well in these aspects if we look at the Ukraine war, or any earlier wars for that matter. Their tactics tend to prefer quantity over quality. But yes, as pointed out I'm sure Russia places some more value on lives of skilled, well trained personnel than the average poorly trained grunt soldier, simply due to higher utility value.
- greenavocado 2y ago
  > Their tactics tend to prefer quantity over quality. Nonsense.
  - simion314 2y ago
    >Nonsense Reality disagrees , unless what we see is actually the best and brightest Ruzzia can find.
    - greenavocado 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - simion314 2y ago
        >Russia is fighting against the combined military intelligence apparatus of 40 countries And is Russia's fault they are some assholes that only N Korea and Iran supports them, all their brothers slavic countries in Europe are supporting Ukraine, except the dictator in Belarus who is sitting and spectating. Think about how much Netherlands is helping Ukraine, all because of MH17, some half competent non drunk Ruzzian diplomat would have done a better job in handeling this issue, probably they would have had to do something impossible for a Ruzzian , admit the truth that an incompetent drunk Ruzzian destroyed the airplane and send the guilty to be judged and punished. So incompetent diplomacy, garbage external politics makes Ruzzia to have Zero supporters, this is an achivement and the credit goes to Putin and his gang.
tpm 2y ago
Public opinion is a big deal in democratic countries, which makes them very much averse to loss of soldiers lives. Much less so in a dictatorship like Russia. They are losing more in a month than the US lost in years or decades in active campaigns.
- medo-bear 2y ago
  [flagged]
rascul 2y ago
> What government that has an active military cares about the lives of their soldiers beyond their utility value? I would speculate the governments that rely on volunteers instead of conscripts for the military.

by masijo 2y ago

What government that has an active military cares about the lives of their soldiers beyond their utility value? I don't see how the US is different in that regard.

simion314 2y ago

That is the point, if you sacrifice the soldiers lives you should do it for something valuable, even using pro-Rus maps Russia is gaining at best something less then 1 square kilometer a day and has 1000+ dead or wooded, I am sorry for you disillusions with USA but in civilized countries nobody would think that 1 soldiers live is worth 5000 square netters of field. Sure probably they are sacrificed not for that land but for buying time for Putin, maybe Trump or other miracle move will save him. So from Putin's POV 1000 soldiers for 1 more day on the throne is a price he can pay, in a democracy this would have ended a long time ago.

thriftwy 2y ago
> maybe Trump or other miracle move will save him Save Putin from what? By default, from now on Russia just retains the (formerly) Ukrainian lands it controls and integrates them in Russia. There's no deadline to that process, even if Russia stops gaining any land at all while still having to lose some number of people on the front line, basically indefinitely. I can see that assertion in the Western media that Ukraine has an option to "not agree" to unfavorable terms, such as the ones voiced by Putin. The underlying assumption is that Putin has to disengage eventually, so the Ukraine can just wait it out. But unless some miracle saves the day for Ukraine, Russia is not getting out of these lands at all. After all, Russia is busy paving roads and issuing Russian citizenship in these areas.
- ardaoweo 2y ago
  I tend to agree with you. If what Putin has done so far doesn't cause a massive internal revolt, then selling what they've gained by now as a victory shouldn't be too hard either. Attitudes (and apathy) of the Russian population is the most astonishing thing about this whole conflict, and something that should be remembered when dealing with the country in the future, even after Putin.
  - thriftwy 2y ago
    Russian people begin to realize that 1991 and the following decade was very unfair to their nation and (the current) country, and the amount of humiliation and loss during that period dwarfs the losses of Russo-Ukrainian war so far. I don't say that fighting this war in the current state was a good decision, far from it. It is also kind of throwing out good money after the bad. Still, I don't see Russians parting with whatever paltry gains they just had in exchange for a lot of their spilled blood.
    - simion314 2y ago
      >Russian people begin to realize that 1991 and the following decade was very unfair to their nation and (the current) country Post communism was hard for everyone else too, but we (Eastern Europe) do not invent conspiracies about Israel and CIA to explain the corruption and incompetence of our leaders. For our case the politicians could blame the previous guys but in a dictatorship it is hard to blame the previous guys since it means blaming yourself so dictators have no choice then blame soem external force like Israel, CIA,LGBTQ, Satan.
      - thriftwy 2y ago
        The only country in Eastern Europe in Russia-comparable situation is Hungary, and the humiliation in question is when it had lands with Hungarian people in them taken away from it in Treaty of Trianon. And as you can see it's the least happy camper right now. That and, outside the EU, another troublemaker that is Serbia. Russians do not see the existing borders and existing ex-Sovier political layout as fair or in any way beneficial to them.
        simion314 2y ago
        >Russians do not see the existing borders and existing ex-Sovier political layout as fair or in any way beneficial to them. And you agree with this Rusky? They do not like that other nations are not longer part of their empire ? Or that the countries East of Berlin are not under their evil influence ? If yes, then I am sorry for you, maybe the next generation can find peace in the fact that empires and colonialism are history and could focus on their own country, they have resources they only need competent leaders and a better mentality. Ukraines were dumb to not enter in NATO in EU with Poland, they were too pro Ruzzians now the stupidy costs them, look at Poland and look at Ukraine economy.
- simion314 2y ago
  It is not free for Putin to keep this land, drones will fly and kill his men , destroy his refineries, infrastructure etc. Gazprom has giant loses for the first time, Putin also needs to protect himself from the oligarchs that he screwed over with his imperialistic dreams. Ruzzia's economy is not doing well, if you notice in all the demands for peace Putin includes "please, please remove the sanctions". From what I see onlyne Zeds fray to God that Trump will save their SMO from failure, hopefully there are still soem repuplicans with brains around to prevent any truly zetarded decision.

ardaoweo 2y ago

Generally the US does a pretty good job training and keeping their grunt soldiers alive, and evacuating them if wounded. Russia really hasn't done well in these aspects if we look at the Ukraine war, or any earlier wars for that matter. Their tactics tend to prefer quantity over quality. But yes, as pointed out I'm sure Russia places some more value on lives of skilled, well trained personnel than the average poorly trained grunt soldier, simply due to higher utility value.

greenavocado 2y ago
> Their tactics tend to prefer quantity over quality. Nonsense.
- simion314 2y ago
  >Nonsense Reality disagrees , unless what we see is actually the best and brightest Ruzzia can find.
  - greenavocado 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - simion314 2y ago
      >Russia is fighting against the combined military intelligence apparatus of 40 countries And is Russia's fault they are some assholes that only N Korea and Iran supports them, all their brothers slavic countries in Europe are supporting Ukraine, except the dictator in Belarus who is sitting and spectating. Think about how much Netherlands is helping Ukraine, all because of MH17, some half competent non drunk Ruzzian diplomat would have done a better job in handeling this issue, probably they would have had to do something impossible for a Ruzzian , admit the truth that an incompetent drunk Ruzzian destroyed the airplane and send the guilty to be judged and punished. So incompetent diplomacy, garbage external politics makes Ruzzia to have Zero supporters, this is an achivement and the credit goes to Putin and his gang.

tpm 2y ago

Public opinion is a big deal in democratic countries, which makes them very much averse to loss of soldiers lives. Much less so in a dictatorship like Russia. They are losing more in a month than the US lost in years or decades in active campaigns.

medo-bear 2y ago
[flagged]

rascul 2y ago

> What government that has an active military cares about the lives of their soldiers beyond their utility value? I would speculate the governments that rely on volunteers instead of conscripts for the military.