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Fiwix: Unix-like kernel for the i386 architecture

108 points by ingve 2y ago

_mlbt 2y ago
Very cool hobby OS project! MIT license and an impressive list of software that is supported… https://www.fiwix.org/packages.html https://www.fiwix.org/packages.html
giantrobot 2y ago
...it won't be big and professional like HURD.
notorandit 2y ago
Looks somehow similar to Minix. I like the idea of people tinkering with os stuff.
kragen 2y ago
fiwix is a crucial part of bootstrapping the modern software environment from a small enough 'seed' binary that you can hand-verify the binary; it's a kernel that you can compile without a kernel to run the compiler on. as such, its importance goes far beyond the hobby project its unassuming readme paints it as
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  Can it do a (cross-?)compile of Linux and enough userland to bootstrap up to a Linux system? I see that it says gcc 4.7 so I'd guess that it should be possible, but I'm curious if anyone's actually done it.
  - kragen 2y ago
    yeah, i'm pretty sure that's working, though i've been out of touch with the live-bootstrap project for a few months
  - ryan77627 2y ago
    I believe so! I did some messing around with the whole "bootstrappable" suite of repos a few months ago and I remember there was a repo [1] that automated the chain of bootstrapping from a project known as hex0 to Linux 4.9 (iirc) inside qemu using fiwix as an intermediary. I didn't have the time to experiment past running it and verifying it works (it did, took my poor laptop around 10 or so hours to run from start to finish), but I presume I would have been able to compile the latest versions of GCC and Linux from the final state of the VM it made. I may still have the image it made lying around somewhere. [1]: https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      I agree that it's sufficient to bootstrap to an older Linux-based system, since the path from there to a full modern system is well-trodden. That's very cool then, thanks for the link:)
  - alganet 2y ago
    Yes! You can see the full path here: https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap/blob/master/parts.rst https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap/blob/master/part...
rurban 2y ago
I wonder why you want POSIX compatibility when you start a new OS from scratch. All this broken and weird stuff, like signals, buffered synchronous IO, strings, locale, ... can be written in a functional, safe and modern way, enabling safety and performance, which is just not possible with POSIX.
- _mlbt 2y ago
  I think a lot of it is availability of software. If you support enough POSIX things compile with minimal patches.
  - rurban 2y ago
    It's better to write everything from scratch when the foundation is broken. Look at the lisp machine or Concurrent PASCAL. These systems were insanely small
    - dmitrygr 2y ago
      I look forward to the kernel, user space, compilers, and web browser you will author from scratch
      - kragen 2y ago
        you're about halfway there yourself, as i recall it's an appealing project, and i think there's potential to do better than posix, but it's easier to do worse
        dmitrygr 2y ago
        > it's easier to do worse Bingo. Personally, i always disliked POSIX and preferred NT's way of doing things. Synchronous IO by default is silly.
        kragen 2y ago
chriscappuccio 2y ago
Similar to early/mid 90s Linux or BSD
dajtxx 2y ago
Very impressive!
userbinator 2y ago
"Unix-like kernel for the i386 architecture" is exactly what Linux started out as. Good to see others following in Torvalds' footsteps.
- f1shy 2y ago
  Should we say AST steps?!
  - kragen 2y ago
    minix didn't start out on the i386
justanother 2y ago
Not sure if this was intended, but in Belizean creole, "Fi Wi" (pronounced "fee wee", not like WiFi) means "ours" or "for us." Good name for an MIT-licensed kernel project.

108 points by ingve 2y ago

Very cool hobby OS project! MIT license and an impressive list of software that is supported… https://www.fiwix.org/packages.html https://www.fiwix.org/packages.html

giantrobot 2y ago

...it won't be big and professional like HURD.

notorandit 2y ago

Looks somehow similar to Minix. I like the idea of people tinkering with os stuff.

kragen 2y ago

fiwix is a crucial part of bootstrapping the modern software environment from a small enough 'seed' binary that you can hand-verify the binary; it's a kernel that you can compile without a kernel to run the compiler on. as such, its importance goes far beyond the hobby project its unassuming readme paints it as

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
Can it do a (cross-?)compile of Linux and enough userland to bootstrap up to a Linux system? I see that it says gcc 4.7 so I'd guess that it should be possible, but I'm curious if anyone's actually done it.
- kragen 2y ago
  yeah, i'm pretty sure that's working, though i've been out of touch with the live-bootstrap project for a few months
- ryan77627 2y ago
  I believe so! I did some messing around with the whole "bootstrappable" suite of repos a few months ago and I remember there was a repo [1] that automated the chain of bootstrapping from a project known as hex0 to Linux 4.9 (iirc) inside qemu using fiwix as an intermediary. I didn't have the time to experiment past running it and verifying it works (it did, took my poor laptop around 10 or so hours to run from start to finish), but I presume I would have been able to compile the latest versions of GCC and Linux from the final state of the VM it made. I may still have the image it made lying around somewhere. [1]: https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    I agree that it's sufficient to bootstrap to an older Linux-based system, since the path from there to a full modern system is well-trodden. That's very cool then, thanks for the link:)
- alganet 2y ago
  Yes! You can see the full path here: https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap/blob/master/parts.rst https://github.com/fosslinux/live-bootstrap/blob/master/part...

rurban 2y ago

I wonder why you want POSIX compatibility when you start a new OS from scratch. All this broken and weird stuff, like signals, buffered synchronous IO, strings, locale, ... can be written in a functional, safe and modern way, enabling safety and performance, which is just not possible with POSIX.

_mlbt 2y ago
I think a lot of it is availability of software. If you support enough POSIX things compile with minimal patches.
- rurban 2y ago
  It's better to write everything from scratch when the foundation is broken. Look at the lisp machine or Concurrent PASCAL. These systems were insanely small
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    I look forward to the kernel, user space, compilers, and web browser you will author from scratch
    - kragen 2y ago
      you're about halfway there yourself, as i recall it's an appealing project, and i think there's potential to do better than posix, but it's easier to do worse
      - dmitrygr 2y ago
        > it's easier to do worse Bingo. Personally, i always disliked POSIX and preferred NT's way of doing things. Synchronous IO by default is silly.
        kragen 2y ago

chriscappuccio 2y ago

Similar to early/mid 90s Linux or BSD

dajtxx 2y ago

Very impressive!

userbinator 2y ago

"Unix-like kernel for the i386 architecture" is exactly what Linux started out as. Good to see others following in Torvalds' footsteps.

f1shy 2y ago
Should we say AST steps?!
- kragen 2y ago
  minix didn't start out on the i386

justanother 2y ago

Not sure if this was intended, but in Belizean creole, "Fi Wi" (pronounced "fee wee", not like WiFi) means "ours" or "for us." Good name for an MIT-licensed kernel project.