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Reality check: 1. All the BSDs have been out there for decades without anyone running with it. 2. Google and Microsoft - while being a shadow of their former

Reality check: 1. All the BSDs have been out there for decades without anyone running with it. 2. Google and Microsoft - while being a shadow of their former selves technically - are probably still very capable of reimplementing whatever they want. 3. If Ladybird gets so wildly popular, lets celebrate wildly!

Y_Y 2y ago
You wouldn't count OSX as someone running with BSD?
- eitland 2y ago
  I run Mac OS. I am aware that it builds on BSD. Yet BSD is very alive and nobody who wants BSD is lost to Mac. At least I personally have never heard anyone deliberating over a free BSD vs Mac. Edit: and of course upvote. Apple ran with it. But they didn't run away with it. We still have it. Actually we have some patches thanks to them. As I mentioned in my other reply: Open source is not a zero sum game.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    > Actually we have some patches thanks to them. In a relative sense, I would argue that Apple has pilfered an order of magnitude higher value from the community than they have given back. The only example of Apple's net-positive contributions seem to be CUPS and LLVM, both of which were cross-platform before Apple took control. Compared with how much networking and userland code they've taken it feels like a trillion-dollar pittance. Even Microsoft chips in more.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      >Even Microsoft chips in more. They do? With what? (Besides Linux kernel drivers that are only useful for running Linux on their own VM solution.) I guess VScode, for people that use it? CUPS is fantastic, though you're right, it was cross-platform before Apple took control.
    - eitland 2y ago
      > In a relative sense, I would argue that Apple has pilfered an order of magnitude higher value from the community than they have given back. I take objection to the use of "pilfering" to describe usage of software according to the terms specified by its authors. Or would you somehow argue that some features disappeared from BSD thanks to Apple copying their code as they were expressly allowed to in the license? Furthermore, even if it wasn't free software but rather MS Windows or a "pirated" movie many people here would argue it wasn't theft but just unauthorized use.
- BirAdam 2y ago
  Well, macOS is sort of BSD, but not quite. The kernel isn’t really BSD despite large sections being originally taken from BSD. The XNU kernel isn’t really BSD anymore. Then, the userland (BSD is both kernel and userland developed together) isn’t really BSD anymore, and Apple neglects their UNIX userland anyhow.
- criddell 2y ago
  Don’t forget the PS5! At it’s heart it’s just a computer running FreeBSD.
  - eitland 2y ago
    Have you ever seen someone choosing Playstation for their server park since Playstation 3? As their primary workstation? (Yes, PS3 ran Linux in the beginning.)
rsprinkle 2y ago
Cisco's OS is a fork of BSD.
- eitland 2y ago
  I don't know. But if so, what? Have you caught anyone deciding to go with Cisco instead of BSDs on their servers or their laptop? I'm serious here: Open source isn't a zero sum game. Partially thanks to the permissive license of BSD we now have both Mac OS and JunOS (edited: it said Cisco first), which is a good thing, not a bad thing. The problem with Chrome isn't that it exist but that it has been forced upon us and the fact that we know they have used questionable methods to establish it as the dominant browser.
- marcus0x62 2y ago
  Which one? They have dozens of “OSes” across their various products. Cisco IOS is absolutely not based on BSD - it is a proprietary kernel, and such that it even has a “userland”, a proprietary userland. IOS XE is based on Linux. Most of the voice stuff is Linux. Perhaps you are thinking of Juniper’s JunOS, which is based on FreeBSD?
  - yarq 2y ago
    ASyncOS is a fork of FreeBSD. It is used in Cisco's email and web security appliance, which is also their hosted offering. This appliance was previously known as IronPort, before being acquired by Cisco.
    - marcus0x62 2y ago
      I'm sure that's definitely what the parent commenter was thinking of.

Y_Y 2y ago

You wouldn't count OSX as someone running with BSD?

eitland 2y ago
I run Mac OS. I am aware that it builds on BSD. Yet BSD is very alive and nobody who wants BSD is lost to Mac. At least I personally have never heard anyone deliberating over a free BSD vs Mac. Edit: and of course upvote. Apple ran with it. But they didn't run away with it. We still have it. Actually we have some patches thanks to them. As I mentioned in my other reply: Open source is not a zero sum game.
- talldayo 2y ago
  > Actually we have some patches thanks to them. In a relative sense, I would argue that Apple has pilfered an order of magnitude higher value from the community than they have given back. The only example of Apple's net-positive contributions seem to be CUPS and LLVM, both of which were cross-platform before Apple took control. Compared with how much networking and userland code they've taken it feels like a trillion-dollar pittance. Even Microsoft chips in more.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >Even Microsoft chips in more. They do? With what? (Besides Linux kernel drivers that are only useful for running Linux on their own VM solution.) I guess VScode, for people that use it? CUPS is fantastic, though you're right, it was cross-platform before Apple took control.
  - eitland 2y ago
    > In a relative sense, I would argue that Apple has pilfered an order of magnitude higher value from the community than they have given back. I take objection to the use of "pilfering" to describe usage of software according to the terms specified by its authors. Or would you somehow argue that some features disappeared from BSD thanks to Apple copying their code as they were expressly allowed to in the license? Furthermore, even if it wasn't free software but rather MS Windows or a "pirated" movie many people here would argue it wasn't theft but just unauthorized use.
BirAdam 2y ago
Well, macOS is sort of BSD, but not quite. The kernel isn’t really BSD despite large sections being originally taken from BSD. The XNU kernel isn’t really BSD anymore. Then, the userland (BSD is both kernel and userland developed together) isn’t really BSD anymore, and Apple neglects their UNIX userland anyhow.
criddell 2y ago
Don’t forget the PS5! At it’s heart it’s just a computer running FreeBSD.
- eitland 2y ago
  Have you ever seen someone choosing Playstation for their server park since Playstation 3? As their primary workstation? (Yes, PS3 ran Linux in the beginning.)

rsprinkle 2y ago

Cisco's OS is a fork of BSD.

eitland 2y ago
I don't know. But if so, what? Have you caught anyone deciding to go with Cisco instead of BSDs on their servers or their laptop? I'm serious here: Open source isn't a zero sum game. Partially thanks to the permissive license of BSD we now have both Mac OS and JunOS (edited: it said Cisco first), which is a good thing, not a bad thing. The problem with Chrome isn't that it exist but that it has been forced upon us and the fact that we know they have used questionable methods to establish it as the dominant browser.
marcus0x62 2y ago
Which one? They have dozens of “OSes” across their various products. Cisco IOS is absolutely not based on BSD - it is a proprietary kernel, and such that it even has a “userland”, a proprietary userland. IOS XE is based on Linux. Most of the voice stuff is Linux. Perhaps you are thinking of Juniper’s JunOS, which is based on FreeBSD?
- yarq 2y ago
  ASyncOS is a fork of FreeBSD. It is used in Cisco's email and web security appliance, which is also their hosted offering. This appliance was previously known as IronPort, before being acquired by Cisco.
  - marcus0x62 2y ago
    I'm sure that's definitely what the parent commenter was thinking of.