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I can't speak for Servo, but my understanding is that they have very different goals than we do. Servo wants to build an embeddable engine for controlled sets

I can't speak for Servo, but my understanding is that they have very different goals than we do. Servo wants to build an embeddable engine for controlled sets of HTML/CSS/JS content, with a focus on modularity and parallelism. Ladybird wants to build a usable browser for the open web, warts and all, with a focus on compatibility and correctness. I'm a big fan of Servo and I hope they become a huge success! Competition and new ideas in browser engines will benefit all of us! :)

mananaysiempre 2y ago
> Servo wants to build an embeddable engine That’s what they pivoted to after being expelled from Mozilla, but that wasn’t the original goal, was it? It’s the safer(?) one they turned to when the job security evaporated. (Not sure if that changes anything, just feel obligated to point out the retcon here.)
- spankalee 2y ago
  It would be very cool if Servo were picked up as the engine for a new browser.
  - mminer237 2y ago
    You can download Servo right now and use it as a browser: https://servo.org/download/ https://servo.org/download/ It is just extremely rough. It is in a far less-usable state than Ladybird even is and very prone to crashing.
    - diego_sandoval 2y ago
      But it's memory safe.
  - SushiHippie 2y ago
    Agreed, I really hope that someday we'll get a full rust browser, because rust is a language where I could see myself contributing (e.g. fixing bugs that annoy me when using it all day) to it, compared to other languages like C/C++.
- Ygg2 2y ago
  >that wasn’t the original goal They always aimed for a better embeddable story than Gecko. That and more parallelism in layout and processing. > It’s the safer(?) one they turned to when the job security evaporated. Not safer, more like saner multithreading story. Safe rust isn't so much for security as it is safety in a parallel context.
  - mananaysiempre 2y ago
    Re better embeddability, sure. As best as I can tell the Firefox devs have been feeling some amount of dismay due to the fact that everyone embeds Chromium/Blink, despite the whole Mozilla/XUL thing having been built more as an application platform rather than as a foundation for one specific web browser. And that’s entirely understandable, as is attempting to do better on the second go-round. But now it seems that Servo is explicitly targeting embedding and -adjacent use cases only, and that’s a post-Mozilla thing. Re “safe”, I meant that targeting the embedding usecase is safer in a social and project-planning way, as in smaller probability of other people calling them nuts and greater probability of getting something usable in a finite amount of time. Which is fair enough.
    - Ygg2 2y ago
      > as is attempting to do better on the second go-round You seem to be under some impression that Servo before Mozilla layoff and after Mozilla layoffs are the same? They aren't. I mean, the code is a continuation of effort, but the people who worked on it before and after the Mozilla exodus aren't the same. Servo originally did have the same goal of better embeddability, but after it's resurrection it's only the same by mostly coincidence. Sponsors (Tizen IIRC) wants a fast embeddable browser. That's about it.
trustno2 2y ago
The talk about correctness gets me thinking. If there is a difference between how specs define something, and how browsers behave (and website expect them to behave), will you choose technical correctness or websites actually functioning? Technically this has been the big problem of HTML5 vs XHTML, and "technical correctness" lost to actual usability.
- the_duke 2y ago
  Nowadays the spec mostly is "whatever Chrome does". Firefox has often been forced to just conform to Chrome behaviour, despite differing specs, or because the spec was rejected/not agreed upon.
  - Ygg2 2y ago
    We're back to good ol' days of "Internet Explorer is the spec". It's just made by Google.
    - Shugyousha 2y ago
      > We're back to good ol' days of "Internet Explorer is the spec". It's just made by Google. and the code (at least a large part of it in the form of Chromium) is Open Source. I don't think it's as bleak as people make it out to be.
      - trustno2 2y ago
        Chromium is basically everything important anyway; Chrome is some sprinkle on top (I think some DRM stuff?)

mananaysiempre 2y ago

> Servo wants to build an embeddable engine That’s what they pivoted to after being expelled from Mozilla, but that wasn’t the original goal, was it? It’s the safer(?) one they turned to when the job security evaporated. (Not sure if that changes anything, just feel obligated to point out the retcon here.)

spankalee 2y ago
It would be very cool if Servo were picked up as the engine for a new browser.
- mminer237 2y ago
  You can download Servo right now and use it as a browser: https://servo.org/download/ https://servo.org/download/ It is just extremely rough. It is in a far less-usable state than Ladybird even is and very prone to crashing.
  - diego_sandoval 2y ago
    But it's memory safe.
- SushiHippie 2y ago
  Agreed, I really hope that someday we'll get a full rust browser, because rust is a language where I could see myself contributing (e.g. fixing bugs that annoy me when using it all day) to it, compared to other languages like C/C++.
Ygg2 2y ago
>that wasn’t the original goal They always aimed for a better embeddable story than Gecko. That and more parallelism in layout and processing. > It’s the safer(?) one they turned to when the job security evaporated. Not safer, more like saner multithreading story. Safe rust isn't so much for security as it is safety in a parallel context.
- mananaysiempre 2y ago
  Re better embeddability, sure. As best as I can tell the Firefox devs have been feeling some amount of dismay due to the fact that everyone embeds Chromium/Blink, despite the whole Mozilla/XUL thing having been built more as an application platform rather than as a foundation for one specific web browser. And that’s entirely understandable, as is attempting to do better on the second go-round. But now it seems that Servo is explicitly targeting embedding and -adjacent use cases only, and that’s a post-Mozilla thing. Re “safe”, I meant that targeting the embedding usecase is safer in a social and project-planning way, as in smaller probability of other people calling them nuts and greater probability of getting something usable in a finite amount of time. Which is fair enough.
  - Ygg2 2y ago
    > as is attempting to do better on the second go-round You seem to be under some impression that Servo before Mozilla layoff and after Mozilla layoffs are the same? They aren't. I mean, the code is a continuation of effort, but the people who worked on it before and after the Mozilla exodus aren't the same. Servo originally did have the same goal of better embeddability, but after it's resurrection it's only the same by mostly coincidence. Sponsors (Tizen IIRC) wants a fast embeddable browser. That's about it.

trustno2 2y ago

The talk about correctness gets me thinking. If there is a difference between how specs define something, and how browsers behave (and website expect them to behave), will you choose technical correctness or websites actually functioning? Technically this has been the big problem of HTML5 vs XHTML, and "technical correctness" lost to actual usability.

the_duke 2y ago
Nowadays the spec mostly is "whatever Chrome does". Firefox has often been forced to just conform to Chrome behaviour, despite differing specs, or because the spec was rejected/not agreed upon.
- Ygg2 2y ago
  We're back to good ol' days of "Internet Explorer is the spec". It's just made by Google.
  - Shugyousha 2y ago
    > We're back to good ol' days of "Internet Explorer is the spec". It's just made by Google. and the code (at least a large part of it in the form of Chromium) is Open Source. I don't think it's as bleak as people make it out to be.
    - trustno2 2y ago
      Chromium is basically everything important anyway; Chrome is some sprinkle on top (I think some DRM stuff?)