4 ms·

> Since hydrogen can be made with clean energy It, economically, cannot and will never be.

defrost 2y ago
That's very last century of you. OCP Group and Fortescue Energy have announced a 50:50 Morocco-based Joint Venture (JV) focused on the supply of renewable hydrogen, ammonia, and fertilisers to the Moroccan, European and other markets. https://ammoniaenergy.org/articles/ocp-fortescue-hydrogen-and-ammonia-production-in-morocco/ https://ammoniaenergy.org/articles/ocp-fortescue-hydrogen-an... Andrew Forrest of Fortescue Energy has been building out Australian solar farms at scale and generating green hydrogen and ammonia for a little while now. He's done the numbers and intends to increase global hydrogen production by at least a third, all of it "green hydrogen" - and is using it locally to power a multi billion dollar mining operation.
- WorkerBee28474 2y ago
  Obviously because a company announced they were going to do it, it is 100% possible and economically viable. It's not like companies have been putting out press releases for centuries for things that never come true.
  - defrost 2y ago
    That's a new partnership. Fortescue has dozens of green energy and green hydrogen projects under development globally. Currently we have projects in Norway, Australia, Canada, Kenya, Congo, the United States, Argentina and Brazil. Our early customers are industrial companies in the USA, Australia and Singapore, as well as large energy companies in Europe. These partnerships are contracting for Hydrogen | Ammonia from plants that are already near completion that will open next year in 2025. They've additionally built and tested various green hydrogen based transport vehicles and power stations (usually ammonia): eg: https://www.offshore-energy.biz/ammonia-powered-fortescue-green-pioneer-in-worlds-first-ammonia-bunkering/ https://www.offshore-energy.biz/ammonia-powered-fortescue-gr...
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago
  > That's very last century of you I thought his was going to be a reference to production of hydrogen and ammonia in the 20th century via electrolysis, by the likes of Norsk Hydro in 1927 and for about half a century afterwards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsk_Hydro_Rjukan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsk_Hydro_Rjukan
  - defrost 2y ago
    I could have, and almost went there but for a few details: * Norsk Hydro was economic and made a profit for most of last century (the claim was that hydrogen was uneconomic) * I didn't know the details of how Norsk Hydro sourced hydrogen - from water via hydroelectricity seemed obvious and would have made a great example of an economic green hydrogen use. Norsk definitely used "green hydrogen" from 1911 - 1929: The first potassium nitrate was shipped out on 8 December 1911, and two years later the plants were making a profit. The 1920s were a tough time, and production decreased, but in 1929 the electric arc technology was replaced by the Haber process ( from: your link ) It was unclear to me a few hours back whether hydrogen was still extracted from water for the increasing demands of fertilizer and explosives or whether it was sourced from biowaster | natural gas. Reading about a bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vemork https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vemork suggests that Vemork kept up the hydrogen production for the heavy water trade at the very least. I err towards caution when not particulalry certin <shrug>. Good call though.
kolinko 2y ago
Why not? If I'm not mistaken, Europe is proceeding with green hydrogen quite well. With an oversupply of electricity at certain times, and electricity from solar/wind being very cheap, it seems like a good option for grid storage and long-haul trucks (short-haul trucks and cars not so, because batteries are way better there). When the cost of solar/wind gets lower than 1/3rd of coal and gas (which is likely to happen), it will make more sense to have hydrogen grid energy storage than burn coal/gas during winters in Europe.
natmaka 2y ago
https://www.cepsa.com/en/businesses/commercial-clean-energies/green-hydrogen/andalusian-valley https://www.cepsa.com/en/businesses/commercial-clean-energie...
senectus1 2y ago
Hydrogen made with Green energy is absolutley possible. Not just possible its already been done on the lab bench and at large scale. "economics" is a sliding scale. So your statement is patently untrue. All it takes is for that slider to move a bit in the right direct, and the slider for fossil fuels to move in the other direction. Not really a difficult prospect to realize.

That's very last century of you. OCP Group and Fortescue Energy have announced a 50:50 Morocco-based Joint Venture (JV) focused on the supply of renewable hydrogen, ammonia, and fertilisers to the Moroccan, European and other markets. https://ammoniaenergy.org/articles/ocp-fortescue-hydrogen-and-ammonia-production-in-morocco/ https://ammoniaenergy.org/articles/ocp-fortescue-hydrogen-an... Andrew Forrest of Fortescue Energy has been building out Australian solar farms at scale and generating green hydrogen and ammonia for a little while now. He's done the numbers and intends to increase global hydrogen production by at least a third, all of it "green hydrogen" - and is using it locally to power a multi billion dollar mining operation.

WorkerBee28474 2y ago
Obviously because a company announced they were going to do it, it is 100% possible and economically viable. It's not like companies have been putting out press releases for centuries for things that never come true.
- defrost 2y ago
  That's a new partnership. Fortescue has dozens of green energy and green hydrogen projects under development globally. Currently we have projects in Norway, Australia, Canada, Kenya, Congo, the United States, Argentina and Brazil. Our early customers are industrial companies in the USA, Australia and Singapore, as well as large energy companies in Europe. These partnerships are contracting for Hydrogen | Ammonia from plants that are already near completion that will open next year in 2025. They've additionally built and tested various green hydrogen based transport vehicles and power stations (usually ammonia): eg: https://www.offshore-energy.biz/ammonia-powered-fortescue-green-pioneer-in-worlds-first-ammonia-bunkering/ https://www.offshore-energy.biz/ammonia-powered-fortescue-gr...
ZeroGravitas 2y ago
> That's very last century of you I thought his was going to be a reference to production of hydrogen and ammonia in the 20th century via electrolysis, by the likes of Norsk Hydro in 1927 and for about half a century afterwards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsk_Hydro_Rjukan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norsk_Hydro_Rjukan
- defrost 2y ago
  I could have, and almost went there but for a few details: * Norsk Hydro was economic and made a profit for most of last century (the claim was that hydrogen was uneconomic) * I didn't know the details of how Norsk Hydro sourced hydrogen - from water via hydroelectricity seemed obvious and would have made a great example of an economic green hydrogen use. Norsk definitely used "green hydrogen" from 1911 - 1929: The first potassium nitrate was shipped out on 8 December 1911, and two years later the plants were making a profit. The 1920s were a tough time, and production decreased, but in 1929 the electric arc technology was replaced by the Haber process ( from: your link ) It was unclear to me a few hours back whether hydrogen was still extracted from water for the increasing demands of fertilizer and explosives or whether it was sourced from biowaster | natural gas. Reading about a bit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vemork https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vemork suggests that Vemork kept up the hydrogen production for the heavy water trade at the very least. I err towards caution when not particulalry certin <shrug>. Good call though.

kolinko 2y ago

Why not? If I'm not mistaken, Europe is proceeding with green hydrogen quite well. With an oversupply of electricity at certain times, and electricity from solar/wind being very cheap, it seems like a good option for grid storage and long-haul trucks (short-haul trucks and cars not so, because batteries are way better there). When the cost of solar/wind gets lower than 1/3rd of coal and gas (which is likely to happen), it will make more sense to have hydrogen grid energy storage than burn coal/gas during winters in Europe.

natmaka 2y ago

https://www.cepsa.com/en/businesses/commercial-clean-energies/green-hydrogen/andalusian-valley https://www.cepsa.com/en/businesses/commercial-clean-energie...

senectus1 2y ago

Hydrogen made with Green energy is absolutley possible. Not just possible its already been done on the lab bench and at large scale. "economics" is a sliding scale. So your statement is patently untrue. All it takes is for that slider to move a bit in the right direct, and the slider for fossil fuels to move in the other direction. Not really a difficult prospect to realize.