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Not sure why you are getting downvoted. I am aghast with the press-ganging going on in Ukraine. I think if Ukraine can’t motivate volunteers to fight then they

Not sure why you are getting downvoted. I am aghast with the press-ganging going on in Ukraine. I think if Ukraine can’t motivate volunteers to fight then they must surrender. I get that we (the west) wouldn’t like that but they’re taking volunteers so anyone who wants to fight that war is free to do so. Too many people wanting other people to fight their wars for them. I don’t even like my country, the thought of being press ganged by them would make me like the country even less.

blackguardx 2y ago
By this same logic, Russia should also surrender.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  I agree, they should
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Russia seems to have little trouble forcibly conscripting men from their various territories and sending them to fight.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
sofixa 2y ago
It's literally a question of life or death. If Ukraine surrenders, that could very well be the end of the country and ethnic/cultural identity. Look up what happens to Ukrainians captured by the Russian army - rape (irrespective of gender), torture, starvation, daily beatings, etc. Russia has kidnapped hundreds of thousands of kids too. Surrender is not an option. Unfortunately, everyone (men and women included) must do their duty to stop a genocide.
- cjbgkagh 2y ago
  Are you in Ukraine doing your duty? If you are not Ukrainian they do take volunteers. Surrender is an option, none of those things is worse than death. I would not make that trade. If the Ukrainian men want to stop it they can still volunteer, so can anyone else. And it looks like they will lose the war anyway, so they’ll have to surrender anyway except now after a huge amount of death and destruction. Ukraine is heavily indebted and the belief that some Marshal plan reconstruction would enable them to pay that off is unrealistic.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > Surrender is an option, none of those things is worse than death Being tortured, raped and beaten until you die is not worse than death? Beg to disagree. > And it looks like they will lose the war anyway Highly unlikely. Russia is bleeding men they can afford to lose for now, but don't in the long term. Russia has absolutely no way of achieving victory, so by definition Ukraine can't lose. It can't really win either, because Russia as it is today cannot accept defeat.
    - cjbgkagh 2y ago
      Those with that concern can commit suicide instead of surrendering, maintaining a lower bound for how bad things get for them. We disagree on the framing and likely outcomes. I doubt I could your mind so I won’t even try.
      - sofixa 2y ago
        Russia has been trying to conquer Ukraine for 2 years now, and has had very limited success. Things are looking so good for them they're importing North Korean troops and artillery shells. They have shown no serious improvement in military tactics or armaments. Meanwhile Ukraine is being armed by half the world, and has shown crazy advancements in unmanned tech (like hitting Russian ships with underwater unmanned vehicles hundreds of km from Ukrainian ports). Russia cannot win. Even if they somehow manage to conquer the whole of Ukraine which will not happen easily or soon, it will still be at best a Pyrrhic conquest at the expense of guerilla warfare.
- mrob 2y ago
  They could pretend to surrender (ethically speaking, surrender can never be a valid contract because it's always performed under threat of violence, so feigned surrender is always a valid military tactic), pretend to integrate into society, and then continue fighting as guerillas. Slavery is always evil, including military slavery ("conscription").
  - sofixa 2y ago
    You should look up what Russia does to captured Ukrainians, military or civilian, before spouting such nonsense.
    - mrob 2y ago
      That's why suicide vests should be standard issue equipment for all soldiers. The suicide vests should be equipped with heart rate sensors to automatically turn them into land mines if the wearer dies without triggering them (with a short delay to avoid collateral damage). Cyanide pills embedded in false teeth should also be standard equipment as a backup in case the vest fails.
  - badpun 2y ago
    There are degrees of evil though. I'd prefer to be conscripted to an army that's fighting the Russians, than to become russian slave and die in a concentration camp somewhere in the Siberia over the next couple of years (a common scenario during the Stalin reign). The first kind of slavery is designed to give me with an ok life, provided my side wins. The other kind (the Stalin kind) is about exploiting me and tossing me onto the body pile, there's no good outcome there ever. Also, the guerilla scenario is not that realistic. Russians are experts at fighting guerillas and insurections, they have accumulated centuries of experience in it. That's because they've been a multi-ethic empire consisting of a lot of conquered unhappy minorities for a long time now, so they had to learn how to keep them in check. They have world-class spy network and surveilance state, so that any dissidents will be quickly found (torture enough people and someone will give up the location of their guerilla relative etc.). Moreover, they begin the occupation of a given region with mass-murdering people who have leadership capabilities ( see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre ), so that there's literally no one left who could organize the guerillas into anything meaningful. For context - in the part of Poland occupied by Germans during WW2, there was a vast Polish underground state (there were 200k guerillas soldiers alone, but there were also underground schools, universities giving diplomas, underground theaters etc.). That was all operating under Gestapo's nose, and in spite of heavy military commitment to occupy Poland. Meanwhile, in the Soviet-occupied part of Poland, there was practically nothng. Russians were that much better than Germans at squashing dissidents.

blackguardx 2y ago

By this same logic, Russia should also surrender.

cjbgkagh 2y ago
I agree, they should
shiroiushi 2y ago
Russia seems to have little trouble forcibly conscripting men from their various territories and sending them to fight.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

sofixa 2y ago

It's literally a question of life or death. If Ukraine surrenders, that could very well be the end of the country and ethnic/cultural identity. Look up what happens to Ukrainians captured by the Russian army - rape (irrespective of gender), torture, starvation, daily beatings, etc. Russia has kidnapped hundreds of thousands of kids too. Surrender is not an option. Unfortunately, everyone (men and women included) must do their duty to stop a genocide.

cjbgkagh 2y ago
Are you in Ukraine doing your duty? If you are not Ukrainian they do take volunteers. Surrender is an option, none of those things is worse than death. I would not make that trade. If the Ukrainian men want to stop it they can still volunteer, so can anyone else. And it looks like they will lose the war anyway, so they’ll have to surrender anyway except now after a huge amount of death and destruction. Ukraine is heavily indebted and the belief that some Marshal plan reconstruction would enable them to pay that off is unrealistic.
- sofixa 2y ago
  > Surrender is an option, none of those things is worse than death Being tortured, raped and beaten until you die is not worse than death? Beg to disagree. > And it looks like they will lose the war anyway Highly unlikely. Russia is bleeding men they can afford to lose for now, but don't in the long term. Russia has absolutely no way of achieving victory, so by definition Ukraine can't lose. It can't really win either, because Russia as it is today cannot accept defeat.
  - cjbgkagh 2y ago
    Those with that concern can commit suicide instead of surrendering, maintaining a lower bound for how bad things get for them. We disagree on the framing and likely outcomes. I doubt I could your mind so I won’t even try.
    - sofixa 2y ago
      Russia has been trying to conquer Ukraine for 2 years now, and has had very limited success. Things are looking so good for them they're importing North Korean troops and artillery shells. They have shown no serious improvement in military tactics or armaments. Meanwhile Ukraine is being armed by half the world, and has shown crazy advancements in unmanned tech (like hitting Russian ships with underwater unmanned vehicles hundreds of km from Ukrainian ports). Russia cannot win. Even if they somehow manage to conquer the whole of Ukraine which will not happen easily or soon, it will still be at best a Pyrrhic conquest at the expense of guerilla warfare.
mrob 2y ago
They could pretend to surrender (ethically speaking, surrender can never be a valid contract because it's always performed under threat of violence, so feigned surrender is always a valid military tactic), pretend to integrate into society, and then continue fighting as guerillas. Slavery is always evil, including military slavery ("conscription").
- sofixa 2y ago
  You should look up what Russia does to captured Ukrainians, military or civilian, before spouting such nonsense.
  - mrob 2y ago
    That's why suicide vests should be standard issue equipment for all soldiers. The suicide vests should be equipped with heart rate sensors to automatically turn them into land mines if the wearer dies without triggering them (with a short delay to avoid collateral damage). Cyanide pills embedded in false teeth should also be standard equipment as a backup in case the vest fails.
- badpun 2y ago
  There are degrees of evil though. I'd prefer to be conscripted to an army that's fighting the Russians, than to become russian slave and die in a concentration camp somewhere in the Siberia over the next couple of years (a common scenario during the Stalin reign). The first kind of slavery is designed to give me with an ok life, provided my side wins. The other kind (the Stalin kind) is about exploiting me and tossing me onto the body pile, there's no good outcome there ever. Also, the guerilla scenario is not that realistic. Russians are experts at fighting guerillas and insurections, they have accumulated centuries of experience in it. That's because they've been a multi-ethic empire consisting of a lot of conquered unhappy minorities for a long time now, so they had to learn how to keep them in check. They have world-class spy network and surveilance state, so that any dissidents will be quickly found (torture enough people and someone will give up the location of their guerilla relative etc.). Moreover, they begin the occupation of a given region with mass-murdering people who have leadership capabilities ( see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre ), so that there's literally no one left who could organize the guerillas into anything meaningful. For context - in the part of Poland occupied by Germans during WW2, there was a vast Polish underground state (there were 200k guerillas soldiers alone, but there were also underground schools, universities giving diplomas, underground theaters etc.). That was all operating under Gestapo's nose, and in spite of heavy military commitment to occupy Poland. Meanwhile, in the Soviet-occupied part of Poland, there was practically nothng. Russians were that much better than Germans at squashing dissidents.