5 ms·

That's interesting that at the time, in WW1, it was assumed to be a physical injury to the brain caused by the shockwave of exploding artillery shells (hence th

That's interesting that at the time, in WW1, it was assumed to be a physical injury to the brain caused by the shockwave of exploding artillery shells (hence the name). A few years later a consensus evolved that it's a psychological problem caused by the stress of combat, which was the prevailing opinion for about 100 years. And now it's looking like it might actually be a physical injury caused by shockwave damage to the brain.

cjbgkagh 2y ago
Shell shock was considered related to neurasthenia (weak nerves) which is the 18th century name for ME/CFS. TBI, ME/CFS and PTSD are highly correlated for what I believe are the same genetic predisposition plus an environmental trigger.
- mschuster91 2y ago
  ME/CFS can also be triggered by viruses. Epstein-Barr virus and SARS-CoV-2 both are suspected triggers.
  - Earw0rm 2y ago
    And the huge population movements, cramming exhausted people together in dense and often unsanitary conditions, characteristic of 20th century warfare are ideal conditions for.. guess what?
dralley 2y ago
Or both.
seventytwo 2y ago
It’s not either/or. The psychological shit is real, but the physical damage to the brain is real also. Both things are true.
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  Physical damage to the brain can easily cause phycological problem. It wouldn't make psychological problems any less real, merely help to prevent them better.
- jillesvangurp 2y ago
  A lot of the medication for psychological issues is aimed at altering the bio chemistry in the brain to mitigate physical problems. The reason that stuff works is because the issues are physical and not imagined. It's also true that certain disorders (e.g. psychosis) actually cause brain damage when left unchecked. This technically is not a single thing but more like a group of disorders with widely varying symptoms. My understanding is that a lot of PTSD complaints overlap in terms of symptoms and are probably related. Or that some PTSD patients actually become psychotic. So not surprising to see some brain damage in navy seals. Of course the question is what comes first, the brain damage or the ptsd. And whether something can be done before brain damage happens in terms of medication or therapy.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >The reason that stuff works is because the issues are physical and not imagined Psychological doesn't mean "imagined", just means "in the realm of thought". Your thinking is not "imagined", nor is the impact of decisions, ruminating, etc to you.
  - adrianN 2y ago
    The distinction between physical and psychological problems just betrays our abysmal understanding of how the brain works.
    - brinefine 2y ago
      Maybe, but some kind of property dualism still seems plausible to me.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >It’s not either/or. The psychological shit is real Depends, because we had millenia of wars, even much more gruesome (but without explosions), and much fewer accounts of psychological shit. It was just a fact of life, and most people carried on.
alexey-salmin 2y ago
Well the good thing they went forward back then and invented the modern helmet to protect people in trenches from overhead explosions. And incredibly it seems that the Adrian helmet still outperforms modern helmet designs in the blast protection quality. [1] It can't stop a bullet sure, but I suspect that chances of being hit by an overhead blast are higher than that a of a headshot in a typical warfare scenario. [1] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0228802 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
- manuel_w 2y ago
  FYI, also modern helmets are not designed to stop bullets but rather to protect from shrapnel and hand grenades. Stopping a bullet would mean breaking the wearers neck. (The kinetic energy needs to go somewhere after all.)
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    Deflecting it could maybe work though.
  - alexey-salmin 2y ago
    Older steel helmets don't but modern IIIA-class helmets (e.g. ECH) do. Kinetic energy is not an unsolvable problem, energy can be dissipated. The momentum is in fact the problem that can't be really worked-around (except spreading it over longer period of time) but the momentum of a bullet is low. UPD replaced "impulse" with "momentum", lost in translation
    - sobriquet9 2y ago
      Level IIIA resists penetration from .357 SIG, 9 mm, and .44 magnum. Those are handgun rounds. It may stop some intermediate rounds if you’re lucky, but certainly not full power rifle rounds. Helmets cannot deform as much as vests before seriously injuring the wearer, limiting their capacity to dissipate kinetic energy. And if you make them too rigid, concussion becomes a problem.
  - 2y ago
baxtr 2y ago
Maybe that’s because 100 years ago they still remembered the old wars and thus could compare.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

cjbgkagh 2y ago

Shell shock was considered related to neurasthenia (weak nerves) which is the 18th century name for ME/CFS. TBI, ME/CFS and PTSD are highly correlated for what I believe are the same genetic predisposition plus an environmental trigger.

mschuster91 2y ago
ME/CFS can also be triggered by viruses. Epstein-Barr virus and SARS-CoV-2 both are suspected triggers.
- Earw0rm 2y ago
  And the huge population movements, cramming exhausted people together in dense and often unsanitary conditions, characteristic of 20th century warfare are ideal conditions for.. guess what?

dralley 2y ago

Or both.

seventytwo 2y ago

It’s not either/or. The psychological shit is real, but the physical damage to the brain is real also. Both things are true.

alexey-salmin 2y ago
Physical damage to the brain can easily cause phycological problem. It wouldn't make psychological problems any less real, merely help to prevent them better.
jillesvangurp 2y ago
A lot of the medication for psychological issues is aimed at altering the bio chemistry in the brain to mitigate physical problems. The reason that stuff works is because the issues are physical and not imagined. It's also true that certain disorders (e.g. psychosis) actually cause brain damage when left unchecked. This technically is not a single thing but more like a group of disorders with widely varying symptoms. My understanding is that a lot of PTSD complaints overlap in terms of symptoms and are probably related. Or that some PTSD patients actually become psychotic. So not surprising to see some brain damage in navy seals. Of course the question is what comes first, the brain damage or the ptsd. And whether something can be done before brain damage happens in terms of medication or therapy.
- coldtea 2y ago
  >The reason that stuff works is because the issues are physical and not imagined Psychological doesn't mean "imagined", just means "in the realm of thought". Your thinking is not "imagined", nor is the impact of decisions, ruminating, etc to you.
- adrianN 2y ago
  The distinction between physical and psychological problems just betrays our abysmal understanding of how the brain works.
  - brinefine 2y ago
    Maybe, but some kind of property dualism still seems plausible to me.
coldtea 2y ago
>It’s not either/or. The psychological shit is real Depends, because we had millenia of wars, even much more gruesome (but without explosions), and much fewer accounts of psychological shit. It was just a fact of life, and most people carried on.

alexey-salmin 2y ago

Well the good thing they went forward back then and invented the modern helmet to protect people in trenches from overhead explosions. And incredibly it seems that the Adrian helmet still outperforms modern helmet designs in the blast protection quality. [1] It can't stop a bullet sure, but I suspect that chances of being hit by an overhead blast are higher than that a of a headshot in a typical warfare scenario. [1] https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0228802 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

manuel_w 2y ago
FYI, also modern helmets are not designed to stop bullets but rather to protect from shrapnel and hand grenades. Stopping a bullet would mean breaking the wearers neck. (The kinetic energy needs to go somewhere after all.)
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  Deflecting it could maybe work though.
- alexey-salmin 2y ago
  Older steel helmets don't but modern IIIA-class helmets (e.g. ECH) do. Kinetic energy is not an unsolvable problem, energy can be dissipated. The momentum is in fact the problem that can't be really worked-around (except spreading it over longer period of time) but the momentum of a bullet is low. UPD replaced "impulse" with "momentum", lost in translation
  - sobriquet9 2y ago
    Level IIIA resists penetration from .357 SIG, 9 mm, and .44 magnum. Those are handgun rounds. It may stop some intermediate rounds if you’re lucky, but certainly not full power rifle rounds. Helmets cannot deform as much as vests before seriously injuring the wearer, limiting their capacity to dissipate kinetic energy. And if you make them too rigid, concussion becomes a problem.
- 2y ago

baxtr 2y ago

Maybe that’s because 100 years ago they still remembered the old wars and thus could compare.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]