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I don't need to understand the voters to know they're causing a very bad outcome. Trying to assert some sort of equivalence is what got us here.

by tootie 2y ago

lolinder 2y ago
What got us here is a huge percentage of the population feeling disenfranchised and cut off by a condescending elite. A sociopathic demagogue recognized those people and made them feel seen, and you and the Democratic party still just don't get it. That's why we're here, and we'll stay here as long as the Left continues to condescend to them.
- techdragon 2y ago
  Ok… so looking from the outside in Australia… a country with mandatory voting that always happens on weekends to make it incredibly easy for people to do their civic duty, thus allowing us to levy a fine against anyone who doesn’t vote… with electoral divisions and regional boundaries managed by a specific government department that has been structured so as to prevent politicians doing any gerrymandering… In the USA it’s clear that voter suppression and gerrymandering have allowed for partisan groups of elites with both progressive and conservative views to hold onto power for decades as the voting public they represent feels more and more like their vote does not matter, or that they are unable to vote due to their financial situation (no time off, no money for transit, no money for required identification, required identification needs a fixed address and their homeless, etc)… it’s pretty dire… and I have always been kind of shocked how it’s managed to limp along with such statically low voter turnout for decades… money is speech (citizens united) and media are allowed to treat made up news as entertainment with no need to distinguish really from fiction (FCC vs Fox News)… I don’t see any way the situation doesn’t eventually lead to demagoguery… because at some point your public is just so disenfranchised that a demagogue doesn’t have much work to do beyond “I’m not them, get the fuck out and vote for me so I can change things”… But the problem with a demagogue is that even if they don’t turn dictator, they are by nature of their rise to power, going to be very dictator like, it’s their choice, their charisma, their force of will that motivated the voting public… the only problem is that the checks and balances to prevent the demagogue from becoming a dictator, have only been barely tested, first with FDR, then with Nixon, one who died before the change to the system was relevant, the other begrudgingly bowed out before the system had to fully engage with the issue... How would you do it better?
  - skissane 2y ago
    > How would you do it better? Many political scientists believe that the parliamentary system used in most of Europe, and in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, is superior to the presidential system in producing political stability and good policy Many have also said that Latin America has experienced the brunt of the negatives of the presidential system, while the US largely escaped them due to wealth, cultural norms, and maybe even good luck. But over the last few years, things in the US have been degenerating to the point that maybe they aren’t escaping those negatives any more Maybe one of these days it will get so bad that Americans will listen to these political scientists and switch to the Westminster system. Maybe what America really needs is a Prime Minister. The Westminister system doesn’t require a monarchy, see Ireland and Malta for examples of parliamentary republics with predominantly British political traditions. In a parliamentary republic, you have a figurehead President while the Prime Minister holds the real power. Other examples of parliamentary republics (albeit non-Westminster) include Austria, Germany and Israel
- tootie 2y ago
  So them being vindictive over losing elections made them pliable enough to reject democracy and it's our fault so we should apologize? No. There's no excuse. At some point you have just admit that some people have bad intentions.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    You're mixing up the voters with the politicians. Trump voters aren't vindictive about losing elections, they're frustrated that their lives are falling apart and they have no control over it. The world is changing and it's leaving people behind. Not the people in the coastal cities, the people in the middle of America. They see a government that not only doesn't care about them but that actively works to shut down the industries that they rely on. They saw a Republican Party that just assumed it would get their vote and a Democratic Party that wished they didn't exist, and they felt powerless. Then Trump came along and he spoke to them. For the first time in decades they felt seen and heard, for the first time in decades they felt like there was a politician who understood them. They can't see that it's a fraud, they can't see Trump for who he is, because Trump gives them the attention that they so desperately need. The "condescending elite" that I referred to wasn't the Democrats, it was both Democrats and Republicans who didn't think that these people mattered. Trump proved that they did, and the only way we're getting out of this situation is for more honest politicians to recognize that and solve these people's very real problems.
    - tootie 2y ago
      I understand all that but you're the one being condescending assuming they're so utterly gullible. I'm sure they have plenty of grievance. Everyone does. They chose a conman because he promised revenge. That is their fault and also very worthy of scorn. I can blame them for their poor character the same way you could blame slave states for starting the civil war. They were just wrong.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - 2y ago

I don't need to understand the voters to know they're causing a very bad outcome. Trying to assert some sort of equivalence is what got us here.

by tootie 2y ago

I don't need to understand the voters to know they're causing a very bad outcome. Trying to assert some sort of equivalence is what got us here.

lolinder 2y ago

What got us here is a huge percentage of the population feeling disenfranchised and cut off by a condescending elite. A sociopathic demagogue recognized those people and made them feel seen, and you and the Democratic party still just don't get it. That's why we're here, and we'll stay here as long as the Left continues to condescend to them.

techdragon 2y ago
Ok… so looking from the outside in Australia… a country with mandatory voting that always happens on weekends to make it incredibly easy for people to do their civic duty, thus allowing us to levy a fine against anyone who doesn’t vote… with electoral divisions and regional boundaries managed by a specific government department that has been structured so as to prevent politicians doing any gerrymandering… In the USA it’s clear that voter suppression and gerrymandering have allowed for partisan groups of elites with both progressive and conservative views to hold onto power for decades as the voting public they represent feels more and more like their vote does not matter, or that they are unable to vote due to their financial situation (no time off, no money for transit, no money for required identification, required identification needs a fixed address and their homeless, etc)… it’s pretty dire… and I have always been kind of shocked how it’s managed to limp along with such statically low voter turnout for decades… money is speech (citizens united) and media are allowed to treat made up news as entertainment with no need to distinguish really from fiction (FCC vs Fox News)… I don’t see any way the situation doesn’t eventually lead to demagoguery… because at some point your public is just so disenfranchised that a demagogue doesn’t have much work to do beyond “I’m not them, get the fuck out and vote for me so I can change things”… But the problem with a demagogue is that even if they don’t turn dictator, they are by nature of their rise to power, going to be very dictator like, it’s their choice, their charisma, their force of will that motivated the voting public… the only problem is that the checks and balances to prevent the demagogue from becoming a dictator, have only been barely tested, first with FDR, then with Nixon, one who died before the change to the system was relevant, the other begrudgingly bowed out before the system had to fully engage with the issue... How would you do it better?
- skissane 2y ago
  > How would you do it better? Many political scientists believe that the parliamentary system used in most of Europe, and in Australia, Canada, New Zealand, is superior to the presidential system in producing political stability and good policy Many have also said that Latin America has experienced the brunt of the negatives of the presidential system, while the US largely escaped them due to wealth, cultural norms, and maybe even good luck. But over the last few years, things in the US have been degenerating to the point that maybe they aren’t escaping those negatives any more Maybe one of these days it will get so bad that Americans will listen to these political scientists and switch to the Westminster system. Maybe what America really needs is a Prime Minister. The Westminister system doesn’t require a monarchy, see Ireland and Malta for examples of parliamentary republics with predominantly British political traditions. In a parliamentary republic, you have a figurehead President while the Prime Minister holds the real power. Other examples of parliamentary republics (albeit non-Westminster) include Austria, Germany and Israel
tootie 2y ago
So them being vindictive over losing elections made them pliable enough to reject democracy and it's our fault so we should apologize? No. There's no excuse. At some point you have just admit that some people have bad intentions.
- lolinder 2y ago
  You're mixing up the voters with the politicians. Trump voters aren't vindictive about losing elections, they're frustrated that their lives are falling apart and they have no control over it. The world is changing and it's leaving people behind. Not the people in the coastal cities, the people in the middle of America. They see a government that not only doesn't care about them but that actively works to shut down the industries that they rely on. They saw a Republican Party that just assumed it would get their vote and a Democratic Party that wished they didn't exist, and they felt powerless. Then Trump came along and he spoke to them. For the first time in decades they felt seen and heard, for the first time in decades they felt like there was a politician who understood them. They can't see that it's a fraud, they can't see Trump for who he is, because Trump gives them the attention that they so desperately need. The "condescending elite" that I referred to wasn't the Democrats, it was both Democrats and Republicans who didn't think that these people mattered. Trump proved that they did, and the only way we're getting out of this situation is for more honest politicians to recognize that and solve these people's very real problems.
  - tootie 2y ago
    I understand all that but you're the one being condescending assuming they're so utterly gullible. I'm sure they have plenty of grievance. Everyone does. They chose a conman because he promised revenge. That is their fault and also very worthy of scorn. I can blame them for their poor character the same way you could blame slave states for starting the civil war. They were just wrong.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - 2y ago