4 ms·

The problem with Windows 11 is that you have to run Windows 11.

by TylerE 2y ago

bongodongobob 2y ago
Which most businesses have to use. The idea that medium to large businesses even have the option to drop the MS suite is laughable.
- Alupis 2y ago
  Except Big Business is exactly the type that does drop the MS Suite. Using Microsoft products becomes a liability on a certain level. It's SMB's that are stuck with MS products... If you think about it, most of us just tolerate Microsoft products. They're often not amazing to use (Teams, Sharepoint, etc), but we put up with them because they're mostly sufficient and/or you just already know how to deal with the warts. That's not a glowing review of MS stuff. GSuite (or whatever they call it these days) is popular with many smaller companies and startups because they don't need traditional locally-installed office apps.
  - bongodongobob 2y ago
    This is 100% backwards. Big business loves MS, they don't tolerate it. It's one simple ecosystem that every sysadmin and IT helpdesk person knows. Let's consider a 1000 person org with 5 offices. Here's their stack: 1 (or 2) DC's at each site Active directory with 30 OU's and 100 security groups A datacenter A dozen LAN file shares with spaghetti permissions 1000 workstations (with paid licenses) 1000 email accounts (with paid licenses) 25 Sharepoint sites 100 Teams 20 Shared mailboxes 30 Distribution groups 100 GPO's defining server and workstation behavior/logon scripts/etc AAD controlling user licensing, SSO, auth, dynamic groups, one way sync to local AD 7+ years of M365 and server backups (prob in the 100TB+ range) 40 TB of active data across the org 15 Hardware servers 50 Windows server VMs 20 Windows 10/11 VMs 15 Different industry specific softwares that REQUIRE Windows Switches/routers/firewalls/VPNs using LDAP to auth Dozens of automations using email/sharepoint/PowerApps/Flow/ToDo And 40 years of inertia. Tell the CTO/CIO that you think they should move to Linux and Gsuite and find open source programs to replace literally everything they do. Tell them they need to retrain their entire IT staff. They also need to redo every single workflow and SOP they have. You'll never be taken seriously again if you don't immediately start laughing and say "Just kidding, that would be insane!". That's not even a "big" business. I don't mean to be rude but you have no idea what you're talking about.
    - Alupis 2y ago
      Do you realize all of this can be done without a single drop of Microsoft software? You've rattled off a list of features - mostly related to mailboxes - that do not require Microsoft software to accomplish. Alas, to some people, every problem appears like a Microsoft solution.
      - bongodongobob 2y ago
        Yes I do. I would never want to try it though and transitioning to it would be an insanely complex project taking years. I would quit. The Microsoft world runs the vast majority of businesses with more than 20-50 people. MS world is tiny... You know what's tiny? The dev/startup world. MS is overwhelmingly dominant. Not even close. Your 12 person startup? Yeah, who cares, Linux/Mac all the way. Roll your own everything. Have a NAS that everyone has permissions to, sure, whatever. Backups? Copy it to another NAS every other week, ok. 1000 people who have been using Windows their entire life, half of which are over 50? Managing dozens of levels of permissions? Decades worth of backups? Go try managing fleets of computers, permissions, file shares, etc for users that require... Windows software. M365 and the MS platform is the shit. I've used Linux since the 90s. It's my daily driver at home. I was an anti M$ leet haxor. Then I joined the mature business world and saw what MS provides to businesses. The idea of gutting the entire infra "to save money from the bad M$" is greenhorn shit. I know because that was me 20 years ago. You can't just roll your own whatever cobbling together multiple 3rd party stuff and then somehow find people to support it for years to come. It is going to break and it's going to cost money. This site loves to talk about tech debt. I can't tell you how many systems I've had to migrate from some lone wolf admin that loves writing custom scripts glueing together multiple applications and processes, building a tower of shit which no one knows how it worked after he left so he could have job security. It's very common. MS admins are a dime a dozen. Easy to find. Reliably experienced. There's a ton of value in that alone. You will never save money migrating a large org that's already on MS away from it. Completely rediculous.
        Alupis 2y ago
        > Yes I do. I would never want to try it though and transitioning to it would be an insanely complex project taking years. I would quit. And there we have it. Some people drink so much Microsoft Kool-Aide and cannot possibly fathom ever using anything else but Microsoft software. Every possible problem looks like a Microsoft solution. If the solution isn't obvious, call the Microsoft Rep and find one! Then the predictable "what are you going to do, roll your own?!" remark... failing to realize there's more than just one SaaS company in the world. How do you wager all the big businesses around the world accomplish all of these things you mentioned? What about all the big businesses in Russia, China, India and more? Hint - they're not all using Microsoft products and Azure... Do you believe Microsoft is the only SaaS offering inboxes, storage, automation and more? Do you believe nothing else can use open protocols such as LDAP? Microsoft's moat is deep, but it's not necessary. Most people eventually figure this out for themselves.
- lmm 2y ago
  You can't drop Office, sure. But you can keep using it on Win10, and MS probably can't get away with changing the file formats again.
  - znkynz 2y ago
    If you're using M365, then you need to maintain OS support + Rolling office. Not clear Windows 10 meets this beyond $date.
- HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
  The entire German government figured it out.
  - c0balt 2y ago
    No, they didn't. I work in a government funded institute and personally know people serving in government agencies. I would prefer they use Linux and OSS but they don't. The inertia and energy required to get anything to change is immense. Many are still working on digitalizing processes though COVID has provided a bit of a push there. They are for the most part on Windows with the MS Suite. There are some exceptions but in >90% of offices you will find a Windows PC with the MS Office suite. Most of them have migrated to Windows 10 but I have encountered multiple Windows 7 machines in active use recently.
    - rawgabbit 2y ago
      Is there a reason not to adopt chromebooks and iPads for end users; and implement a walled off (IP restricted) government version of Office and Gsuite?
      - c0balt 2y ago
        Likely license/ device cost, complexity and migration costs. Most systems are desktop PC's with "Mobiles Arbeiten" still being a scarce resource in some agencies. (Constraints on laptops etc.). They chug along for 5-8 and sometimes longer if there's no requirement to upgrade. I wouldn't expect a laptop/ Tablet to have the same durability because it has consumable components like a battery. There's also complexity in such a one-off setup that makes hiring for admin people harder, places strong constraints on new systems and would enforce a strong dependence on Google and their cloud. While having a NAS or SharePoint is not fancy, it works and keeps pii local and not shared with your vendor. You might also have to look at integrating existing software (systems) into such an environment. This is likely not easy given that some systems are purpose built for government agencies environments.

The problem with Windows 11 is that you have to run Windows 11.

by TylerE 2y ago

The problem with Windows 11 is that you have to run Windows 11.

Which most businesses have to use. The idea that medium to large businesses even have the option to drop the MS suite is laughable.

Alupis 2y ago
Except Big Business is exactly the type that does drop the MS Suite. Using Microsoft products becomes a liability on a certain level. It's SMB's that are stuck with MS products... If you think about it, most of us just tolerate Microsoft products. They're often not amazing to use (Teams, Sharepoint, etc), but we put up with them because they're mostly sufficient and/or you just already know how to deal with the warts. That's not a glowing review of MS stuff. GSuite (or whatever they call it these days) is popular with many smaller companies and startups because they don't need traditional locally-installed office apps.
- bongodongobob 2y ago
  This is 100% backwards. Big business loves MS, they don't tolerate it. It's one simple ecosystem that every sysadmin and IT helpdesk person knows. Let's consider a 1000 person org with 5 offices. Here's their stack: 1 (or 2) DC's at each site Active directory with 30 OU's and 100 security groups A datacenter A dozen LAN file shares with spaghetti permissions 1000 workstations (with paid licenses) 1000 email accounts (with paid licenses) 25 Sharepoint sites 100 Teams 20 Shared mailboxes 30 Distribution groups 100 GPO's defining server and workstation behavior/logon scripts/etc AAD controlling user licensing, SSO, auth, dynamic groups, one way sync to local AD 7+ years of M365 and server backups (prob in the 100TB+ range) 40 TB of active data across the org 15 Hardware servers 50 Windows server VMs 20 Windows 10/11 VMs 15 Different industry specific softwares that REQUIRE Windows Switches/routers/firewalls/VPNs using LDAP to auth Dozens of automations using email/sharepoint/PowerApps/Flow/ToDo And 40 years of inertia. Tell the CTO/CIO that you think they should move to Linux and Gsuite and find open source programs to replace literally everything they do. Tell them they need to retrain their entire IT staff. They also need to redo every single workflow and SOP they have. You'll never be taken seriously again if you don't immediately start laughing and say "Just kidding, that would be insane!". That's not even a "big" business. I don't mean to be rude but you have no idea what you're talking about.
  - Alupis 2y ago
    Do you realize all of this can be done without a single drop of Microsoft software? You've rattled off a list of features - mostly related to mailboxes - that do not require Microsoft software to accomplish. Alas, to some people, every problem appears like a Microsoft solution.
    - bongodongobob 2y ago
      Yes I do. I would never want to try it though and transitioning to it would be an insanely complex project taking years. I would quit. The Microsoft world runs the vast majority of businesses with more than 20-50 people. MS world is tiny... You know what's tiny? The dev/startup world. MS is overwhelmingly dominant. Not even close. Your 12 person startup? Yeah, who cares, Linux/Mac all the way. Roll your own everything. Have a NAS that everyone has permissions to, sure, whatever. Backups? Copy it to another NAS every other week, ok. 1000 people who have been using Windows their entire life, half of which are over 50? Managing dozens of levels of permissions? Decades worth of backups? Go try managing fleets of computers, permissions, file shares, etc for users that require... Windows software. M365 and the MS platform is the shit. I've used Linux since the 90s. It's my daily driver at home. I was an anti M$ leet haxor. Then I joined the mature business world and saw what MS provides to businesses. The idea of gutting the entire infra "to save money from the bad M$" is greenhorn shit. I know because that was me 20 years ago. You can't just roll your own whatever cobbling together multiple 3rd party stuff and then somehow find people to support it for years to come. It is going to break and it's going to cost money. This site loves to talk about tech debt. I can't tell you how many systems I've had to migrate from some lone wolf admin that loves writing custom scripts glueing together multiple applications and processes, building a tower of shit which no one knows how it worked after he left so he could have job security. It's very common. MS admins are a dime a dozen. Easy to find. Reliably experienced. There's a ton of value in that alone. You will never save money migrating a large org that's already on MS away from it. Completely rediculous.
      - Alupis 2y ago
        > Yes I do. I would never want to try it though and transitioning to it would be an insanely complex project taking years. I would quit. And there we have it. Some people drink so much Microsoft Kool-Aide and cannot possibly fathom ever using anything else but Microsoft software. Every possible problem looks like a Microsoft solution. If the solution isn't obvious, call the Microsoft Rep and find one! Then the predictable "what are you going to do, roll your own?!" remark... failing to realize there's more than just one SaaS company in the world. How do you wager all the big businesses around the world accomplish all of these things you mentioned? What about all the big businesses in Russia, China, India and more? Hint - they're not all using Microsoft products and Azure... Do you believe Microsoft is the only SaaS offering inboxes, storage, automation and more? Do you believe nothing else can use open protocols such as LDAP? Microsoft's moat is deep, but it's not necessary. Most people eventually figure this out for themselves.
lmm 2y ago
You can't drop Office, sure. But you can keep using it on Win10, and MS probably can't get away with changing the file formats again.
- znkynz 2y ago
  If you're using M365, then you need to maintain OS support + Rolling office. Not clear Windows 10 meets this beyond $date.
HeatrayEnjoyer 2y ago
The entire German government figured it out.
- c0balt 2y ago
  No, they didn't. I work in a government funded institute and personally know people serving in government agencies. I would prefer they use Linux and OSS but they don't. The inertia and energy required to get anything to change is immense. Many are still working on digitalizing processes though COVID has provided a bit of a push there. They are for the most part on Windows with the MS Suite. There are some exceptions but in >90% of offices you will find a Windows PC with the MS Office suite. Most of them have migrated to Windows 10 but I have encountered multiple Windows 7 machines in active use recently.
  - rawgabbit 2y ago
    Is there a reason not to adopt chromebooks and iPads for end users; and implement a walled off (IP restricted) government version of Office and Gsuite?
    - c0balt 2y ago
      Likely license/ device cost, complexity and migration costs. Most systems are desktop PC's with "Mobiles Arbeiten" still being a scarce resource in some agencies. (Constraints on laptops etc.). They chug along for 5-8 and sometimes longer if there's no requirement to upgrade. I wouldn't expect a laptop/ Tablet to have the same durability because it has consumable components like a battery. There's also complexity in such a one-off setup that makes hiring for admin people harder, places strong constraints on new systems and would enforce a strong dependence on Google and their cloud. While having a NAS or SharePoint is not fancy, it works and keeps pii local and not shared with your vendor. You might also have to look at integrating existing software (systems) into such an environment. This is likely not easy given that some systems are purpose built for government agencies environments.