4 ms·

Why have conveyor belts instead of having more freight trains?

lesuorac 2y ago
What freight trains? ("In 2017, only about 5% of all freight in Japan is carried by rail ... Trucks carry about 50% and ships about 44%." [1]; "It is used relatively little for freight transport, accounting for just 0.84% of goods movement." [2]) Also it's apparently something they do. "And it’s not totally untested. The country’s Torigatayama limestone mine uses a 14-mile (23 km) belt, and in Africa a 62-mile (100 km) system moves phosphate between mine and port, SCMP notes." Personally I'd think it'd be easier to make a canal but I'm not a civil engineer. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Freight_Railway_Company#Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Freight_Railway_Company#... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Japan
- Hooray_Darakian 2y ago
  I think that just changes the question to "Why belts instead of some cargo trains" then. Scheduling would no doubt be an issue, but is probably tractable.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  Tokyo and Osaka are both on the ocean (although, a bit roundabout path between them). You would think it would be easier to just do more cargo ships point to point.
  - m463 2y ago
    Trucks would be low latency, low bandwidth. Cargo ships would be high bandwidth, high latency. For example, I think trucks would be better for perishable goods.
- lelandbatey 2y ago
  Since both are port cities, I very much wonder why they're not stopping them by boat?
- foota 2y ago
  Canals would also require drivers for the boats (modulo some AI powered boats or something). I suspect the real answer here is that the report was just some exploratory thinking, and unlikely to really happen.
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    I wonder how the ratio of people:stuff breaks down WRT boats and trucks. I’d expect trucks to be much more person intensive, but the vagaries of crew sizes and canal widths could throw that off I guess.
    - lucumo 2y ago
      I quickly scanned the Rhine Regulations for Navigation Personnel. The tables starting on page 49 show minimum crew requirements for types of ships and operating modes: https://www.ccr-zkr.org/files/documents/reglementSTF/RPN_01012024_en.pdf https://www.ccr-zkr.org/files/documents/reglementSTF/RPN_010... It seems to go from a single boatmaster to crews of less than 10. The smallest container ships for inland shipping are about 30-ish containers; the largest about 500. A truck can do 2 containers with 1 driver. So, an inland ship can do 15-30 times as many containers per crew, compared to a truck.
  - Glyptodon 2y ago
    It seems like a canal with a current could have unmanned pods that behave like items on a conveyor belt. My best guess as to why a cargo belt is that maybe conveyor belts could handle slight elevation changes better than a canal.
- numpad0 2y ago
  The famous Japanese rail network is incompatible with the ISO 40/20ft container spec. Surprise surprise...
  - AlbertCory 2y ago
    that's what I was wondering, too. How is it incompatible? Wrong gauges?
    - corey_moncure 2y ago
      JR (on which freight trains do run) network is 3/4 gauge, but JR shinkansen and other operators use standard.
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        >but JR shinkansen and other operators use standard. That's irrelevant. The shinkansen tracks cannot be used for cargo trains: they're exclusively for high-speed passenger trains. You can't share tracks between slow cargo trains and high-speed passenger trains. Not only is the scheduling impossible, but the cargo trains would ruin the tracks. The shinkansen tracks require frequent and thorough maintenance to keep them at the level needed for reliable high-speed service. If you want to see what happens when you try to share tracks between cargo and passengers, just take a look at Amtrak. It's a complete disaster.
    - numpad0 2y ago
      It's combination of tunnel ceiling height, weight limit, and chassis mounting compatibility. I'm not completely sure there were protectionism of either directions are involved with JNR/JR 12/20/31ft system and ISO 20/40ft, both seem to have been conceived around the same time in mid 60s.
russfink 2y ago
And why a “belt” instead of a custom rail conveyance?
wongarsu 2y ago
Japan is very mountainous, so any flat land is really valuable. The proposal seems to suggest to put the conveyor belt in highway medians or tunnels below roads. Using highway medians sounds like it should bring a lot of issues, but it's free real estate on grades a conveyor can easily handle. Running train tracks there probably wouldn't work as trains are more demanding than cars when it comes to acceptable grades and curves. If they go with tunnels the rationale of the boring company applies: the smaller the tunnel the cheaper it is to dig.
russfink 2y ago
One more - 311 miles of airport luggage-like conveyors: would the standard cardboard box survive the many, many hops and interchanges required? Sometimes I think ideas are published so that people in forums such as HN can come up with better solutions that they then learn from.
- quartesixte 2y ago
  Related question: how many miles of conveyor belt in a typical UPS/FedEx center? How many miles of belt does a box currently traverse?
dzhiurgis 2y ago
Or moving trains in a circle

What freight trains? ("In 2017, only about 5% of all freight in Japan is carried by rail ... Trucks carry about 50% and ships about 44%." [1]; "It is used relatively little for freight transport, accounting for just 0.84% of goods movement." [2]) Also it's apparently something they do. "And it’s not totally untested. The country’s Torigatayama limestone mine uses a 14-mile (23 km) belt, and in Africa a 62-mile (100 km) system moves phosphate between mine and port, SCMP notes." Personally I'd think it'd be easier to make a canal but I'm not a civil engineer. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Freight_Railway_Company#Economics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Freight_Railway_Company#... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Japan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Japan

Hooray_Darakian 2y ago
I think that just changes the question to "Why belts instead of some cargo trains" then. Scheduling would no doubt be an issue, but is probably tractable.
0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
Tokyo and Osaka are both on the ocean (although, a bit roundabout path between them). You would think it would be easier to just do more cargo ships point to point.
- m463 2y ago
  Trucks would be low latency, low bandwidth. Cargo ships would be high bandwidth, high latency. For example, I think trucks would be better for perishable goods.
lelandbatey 2y ago
Since both are port cities, I very much wonder why they're not stopping them by boat?
foota 2y ago
Canals would also require drivers for the boats (modulo some AI powered boats or something). I suspect the real answer here is that the report was just some exploratory thinking, and unlikely to really happen.
- bee_rider 2y ago
  I wonder how the ratio of people:stuff breaks down WRT boats and trucks. I’d expect trucks to be much more person intensive, but the vagaries of crew sizes and canal widths could throw that off I guess.
  - lucumo 2y ago
    I quickly scanned the Rhine Regulations for Navigation Personnel. The tables starting on page 49 show minimum crew requirements for types of ships and operating modes: https://www.ccr-zkr.org/files/documents/reglementSTF/RPN_01012024_en.pdf https://www.ccr-zkr.org/files/documents/reglementSTF/RPN_010... It seems to go from a single boatmaster to crews of less than 10. The smallest container ships for inland shipping are about 30-ish containers; the largest about 500. A truck can do 2 containers with 1 driver. So, an inland ship can do 15-30 times as many containers per crew, compared to a truck.
- Glyptodon 2y ago
  It seems like a canal with a current could have unmanned pods that behave like items on a conveyor belt. My best guess as to why a cargo belt is that maybe conveyor belts could handle slight elevation changes better than a canal.
numpad0 2y ago
The famous Japanese rail network is incompatible with the ISO 40/20ft container spec. Surprise surprise...
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  that's what I was wondering, too. How is it incompatible? Wrong gauges?
  - corey_moncure 2y ago
    JR (on which freight trains do run) network is 3/4 gauge, but JR shinkansen and other operators use standard.
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      >but JR shinkansen and other operators use standard. That's irrelevant. The shinkansen tracks cannot be used for cargo trains: they're exclusively for high-speed passenger trains. You can't share tracks between slow cargo trains and high-speed passenger trains. Not only is the scheduling impossible, but the cargo trains would ruin the tracks. The shinkansen tracks require frequent and thorough maintenance to keep them at the level needed for reliable high-speed service. If you want to see what happens when you try to share tracks between cargo and passengers, just take a look at Amtrak. It's a complete disaster.
  - numpad0 2y ago
    It's combination of tunnel ceiling height, weight limit, and chassis mounting compatibility. I'm not completely sure there were protectionism of either directions are involved with JNR/JR 12/20/31ft system and ISO 20/40ft, both seem to have been conceived around the same time in mid 60s.

russfink 2y ago

And why a “belt” instead of a custom rail conveyance?

wongarsu 2y ago

Japan is very mountainous, so any flat land is really valuable. The proposal seems to suggest to put the conveyor belt in highway medians or tunnels below roads. Using highway medians sounds like it should bring a lot of issues, but it's free real estate on grades a conveyor can easily handle. Running train tracks there probably wouldn't work as trains are more demanding than cars when it comes to acceptable grades and curves. If they go with tunnels the rationale of the boring company applies: the smaller the tunnel the cheaper it is to dig.

russfink 2y ago

One more - 311 miles of airport luggage-like conveyors: would the standard cardboard box survive the many, many hops and interchanges required? Sometimes I think ideas are published so that people in forums such as HN can come up with better solutions that they then learn from.

quartesixte 2y ago
Related question: how many miles of conveyor belt in a typical UPS/FedEx center? How many miles of belt does a box currently traverse?

dzhiurgis 2y ago

Or moving trains in a circle