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I'm not really upset about this for a few reasons: * Taxes are excessive and out of control in the US * Most taxes just end up in lawmaker's buddy's pockets

I'm not really upset about this for a few reasons: * Taxes are excessive and out of control in the US * Most taxes just end up in lawmaker's buddy's pockets * Programs in the US get created, and never garbage collected * Literally every business is doing this Really the only thing that upsets me is that these tax havens aren't accessible to common people like me, as I'm not blood or marriage related to a US Senator or Congressional Rep.

consp 2y ago
I live in one and it is useless to me as well so don't be too sad.
toomuchtodo 2y ago
Taxes in the US are at historic lows. The emotional appeal is not compelling wrt tax evasion. Edit: https://www.concordcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Tax-Rich-1-750x454.png https://www.concordcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/...
- coldtea 2y ago
  >Taxes in the US are at historic lows Given that the income tax didn't exist in the US before 1861, and even when it was introduced it was 3%, and in 1913 the highest bracket was 7% (on income over $11 million in todays's money) and the lowest was 1%, I seriously doubt that.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - mandarax8 2y ago
    And income tax was even lower in 10'000BC !! https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-federal-income-tax-rates-work https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-federal... For our contemporary age, they are at an all time low.
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    - deleted 2y ago
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    - coldtea 2y ago
      I'm not sure you understand what "historic lows" means
      - kwhitefoot 2y ago
        Enlighten him, and us then.
        coldtea 2y ago
        HISTORIC LOW definition: the lowest level that something, such as a price or interest rate, has been at any time https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/historic-low https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/historic... Consider yourself enlightened.
- chgs 2y ago
  Historic as in since ww2. He US is a young country but it that young. Before the 1930s total tax take was under 10% of gdp
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    You also have to account for GDP growth. IF the same services are provided, one would expect the inflation adjusted cost to remain the same, and the % of GDP to go down, not up. the reality is that Americans pay 10X taxes than in 1930. Surely government services have growth since then as well, but I question if the public is getting 10X the value.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  This is an ahistorical take. Looking only at a handful of tax rates and not tax policy is incredibly misleading. Tax as a percent of the economy has gone through the roof, both as a percent of GDP, and as inflation adjusted dollars. If you compare to a benchmark like the 1940s, tax% of GDP has more than doubled[1], and GDP has increased ~4.5x[2]. This means someone today pays about 10X the taxes (controlling for for inflation!). State and local taxes have grown even faster than federal taxes.[3] Put another way. Taxes/Real GDP has gone from 2% o Federal tax/GDP: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=ockN https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=ockN Real GDP: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A939RX0Q048SBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A939RX0Q048SBEA State +local/Real GDP:https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W070RC1Q027SBEA#0 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W070RC1Q027SBEA#0
  - gamblor956 2y ago
    Your first chart actually shows that federal tax as a % of GDP has remained essentially unchanged since the 1940s, despite the significant changes in tax rates since then. What has changed in the amount of spending as a % of GDP.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Depends on where you cut the comparison. In 1930 they were 4.4% of GDP In 1940 they were 6.3% of GDP In 2023 they were 16.2% of GDP. Federal spending has indeed Grown faster than receipts, but I dont want to muddy the water with debt spending and inflationary effects, and dont have to because Taxes per GDP is fractional and accounts for inflation. The main point I want to drive home is the change in total tax amount, controlling for inflation. People tend to focus on percent tax burden and over look the total tax payment in inflation adjusted real dollars.
      - gamblor956 2y ago
        No, my point was that your cited data source shows that, as a % of GDP, income taxes are unchanged since the 1940s. This is because when you look at the taxes actually paid, it evens out due to deductions, credits, changes to the brackets, etc. It's only if you look at statutory progressive rates that it appears that federal income taxes appear to be a larger % of US GDP.
- gamblor956 2y ago
  While effective tax rates are lower than historic averages (measured since the time the federal income tax was reintroduced in 1913), they are not at "historic lows" as the lowest statutory and effective tax rates were the 1913 rates, when approximately 97% of the U.S. taxable population was not subject to income tax, and the lowest statutory/effective rate was 1% on those earning $3000/year or more ($95k in 2024 dollars).
Zooti 2y ago
Id love the sources on our taxes just going to fill a politicians buddy. Id also love this source showing that corporations and pharmaceutical companies taxes are both excessive and out of control.
blactuary 2y ago
Every bit of this is absolute nonsense
settsu 2y ago
If you're going to make a comment like this, in a place like HN, you gotta bring the receipts, my dude. I.e., citations or GTFO.
jancsika 2y ago
> * Programs in the US get created, and never garbage collected That is demonstrably false. In fact garbage collection is so common I'd bet I can just stand here and do nothing for 5 minutes until my brain finds an intersection with my own circumstances... Found it... Look up the used PHEV federal tax credit. While you're at it, look at the tax credit for new electric and PHEV vehicles. That one even has a little built-in ramp to decrease the incentive over time. It's as if the government has somehow gained practical knowledge and experience over time with various garbage collection routines...
- admissionsguy 2y ago
  and yet the size of the government as % of GDP has increased every decade for over 100 years

consp 2y ago

I live in one and it is useless to me as well so don't be too sad.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Taxes in the US are at historic lows. The emotional appeal is not compelling wrt tax evasion. Edit: https://www.concordcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Tax-Rich-1-750x454.png https://www.concordcoalition.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/...

coldtea 2y ago
>Taxes in the US are at historic lows Given that the income tax didn't exist in the US before 1861, and even when it was introduced it was 3%, and in 1913 the highest bracket was 7% (on income over $11 million in todays's money) and the lowest was 1%, I seriously doubt that.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mandarax8 2y ago
  And income tax was even lower in 10'000BC !! https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-federal-income-tax-rates-work https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/how-do-federal... For our contemporary age, they are at an all time low.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - coldtea 2y ago
    I'm not sure you understand what "historic lows" means
    - kwhitefoot 2y ago
      Enlighten him, and us then.
      - coldtea 2y ago
        HISTORIC LOW definition: the lowest level that something, such as a price or interest rate, has been at any time https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/historic-low https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/historic... Consider yourself enlightened.
chgs 2y ago
Historic as in since ww2. He US is a young country but it that young. Before the 1930s total tax take was under 10% of gdp
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  You also have to account for GDP growth. IF the same services are provided, one would expect the inflation adjusted cost to remain the same, and the % of GDP to go down, not up. the reality is that Americans pay 10X taxes than in 1930. Surely government services have growth since then as well, but I question if the public is getting 10X the value.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
This is an ahistorical take. Looking only at a handful of tax rates and not tax policy is incredibly misleading. Tax as a percent of the economy has gone through the roof, both as a percent of GDP, and as inflation adjusted dollars. If you compare to a benchmark like the 1940s, tax% of GDP has more than doubled[1], and GDP has increased ~4.5x[2]. This means someone today pays about 10X the taxes (controlling for for inflation!). State and local taxes have grown even faster than federal taxes.[3] Put another way. Taxes/Real GDP has gone from 2% o Federal tax/GDP: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=ockN https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=ockN Real GDP: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A939RX0Q048SBEA https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A939RX0Q048SBEA State +local/Real GDP:https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W070RC1Q027SBEA#0 https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/W070RC1Q027SBEA#0
- gamblor956 2y ago
  Your first chart actually shows that federal tax as a % of GDP has remained essentially unchanged since the 1940s, despite the significant changes in tax rates since then. What has changed in the amount of spending as a % of GDP.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Depends on where you cut the comparison. In 1930 they were 4.4% of GDP In 1940 they were 6.3% of GDP In 2023 they were 16.2% of GDP. Federal spending has indeed Grown faster than receipts, but I dont want to muddy the water with debt spending and inflationary effects, and dont have to because Taxes per GDP is fractional and accounts for inflation. The main point I want to drive home is the change in total tax amount, controlling for inflation. People tend to focus on percent tax burden and over look the total tax payment in inflation adjusted real dollars.
    - gamblor956 2y ago
      No, my point was that your cited data source shows that, as a % of GDP, income taxes are unchanged since the 1940s. This is because when you look at the taxes actually paid, it evens out due to deductions, credits, changes to the brackets, etc. It's only if you look at statutory progressive rates that it appears that federal income taxes appear to be a larger % of US GDP.
gamblor956 2y ago
While effective tax rates are lower than historic averages (measured since the time the federal income tax was reintroduced in 1913), they are not at "historic lows" as the lowest statutory and effective tax rates were the 1913 rates, when approximately 97% of the U.S. taxable population was not subject to income tax, and the lowest statutory/effective rate was 1% on those earning $3000/year or more ($95k in 2024 dollars).

Zooti 2y ago

Id love the sources on our taxes just going to fill a politicians buddy. Id also love this source showing that corporations and pharmaceutical companies taxes are both excessive and out of control.

blactuary 2y ago

Every bit of this is absolute nonsense

settsu 2y ago

If you're going to make a comment like this, in a place like HN, you gotta bring the receipts, my dude. I.e., citations or GTFO.

jancsika 2y ago

> * Programs in the US get created, and never garbage collected That is demonstrably false. In fact garbage collection is so common I'd bet I can just stand here and do nothing for 5 minutes until my brain finds an intersection with my own circumstances... Found it... Look up the used PHEV federal tax credit. While you're at it, look at the tax credit for new electric and PHEV vehicles. That one even has a little built-in ramp to decrease the incentive over time. It's as if the government has somehow gained practical knowledge and experience over time with various garbage collection routines...

admissionsguy 2y ago
and yet the size of the government as % of GDP has increased every decade for over 100 years