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Article II of the constitution specifically gives the POTUS the authority to command the armed forces. The limit is declaring war, which is vested in Congress.

Article II of the constitution specifically gives the POTUS the authority to command the armed forces. The limit is declaring war, which is vested in Congress. So it seems reasonable that commanding Seal Team 6 is specifically a constitutionally authorized power and within an official duty.

InTheArena 2y ago
commanding seal team 6 to assassinate a sitting head of state is a act of war, and only congress can declare war.
- ceejayoz 2y ago
  We've made it very clear for decades that the President can commit acts of war without declaring it. Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and dozens of other hotspots around the world.
  - InTheArena 2y ago
    so fix that.
  - Jsebast24 2y ago
    Add Ukraine.
    - ceejayoz 2y ago
      What act of war has the US directly committed against Russia within Ukraine?
- gortok 2y ago
  That hasn't stopped any president in the last 60 years from using the Armed Forces to conduct a war -- or "police action" -- if you prefer.
  - InTheArena 2y ago
    You picked a bad example, as both Korea and Vietnam had congressional authorization. Obama drone wars would be the one to look at.
    - gortok 2y ago
      Congress hasn't declared war after WWII. I suppose that's why you used the euphemism "congressional authorization"; instead of what was intended by the folks that wrote the constitution -- a declaration of war.
- vlovich123 2y ago
  But assasinating private citizens a ok? So Biden can order the assassination of Trump? Even if you claim as someone else that you can’t violate someone’s constitutional rights within an official act, we have already killed US citizens abroad via drone strikes. So if Trump is in some foreign country we can drop an a-bomb and claim it was to kill some terrorist & that’s a ok? The minority points out that official acts was already a defense. The majority opinion here claims that it’s an absolute immunity and even motivation is impervious to this immunity claim. This is a serious undermining of the rule of law in a substantial way and paves the way for the US to have a dictatorship at some point in the future.
  - InTheArena 2y ago
    Please go read the full ruling. That's not what it says. It's an immunity only for official acts, not unofficial ones.
    - vlovich123 2y ago
      So first, the distinction between official acts and unofficial acts isn’t actually defined and even Robert’s admits this ambiguity is going to be a problem: > Determining which acts are official and which are unofficial “can be difficult,” Roberts conceded. He emphasized that the immunity that the court recognizes in its ruling on Monday takes a broad view of what constitutes a president’s “official responsibilities,” “covering actions so long as they are not manifestly or palpably beyond his authority.” In conducting the official/unofficial inquiry, Roberts added, courts cannot consider the president’s motives, nor can they designate an act as unofficial simply because it allegedly violates the law. https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/07/justices-rule-trump-has-some-immunity-from-prosecution/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/07/justices-rule-trump-has-s... Basically the President has a presumption that his behavior is an official act unless it’s egregiously outside his powers but there’s also no way to really investigate it. Oh and it’s also combined with the unitary executive theory popular on the right which holds that the president basically has absolute power over all executive agencies and a growing interpretation of the powers of the president (under both parties) which is a scary scenario. And given that the dissenting opinion from SCOTUS justices literally raises the exact scenario you’re assuming is unofficial, so dismissing it out of hand seems overly bold: > The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf You can disagree with the dissents, but even Justice Barrett outlines some very serious problems with the reasoning in the majority opinion while Justice Thomas says they should go further and completely rule Jack Smith’s investigation unconstitutional outright.
treeFall 2y ago
Being killed by the government without due process of law (ie: death penalty for convicted criminals) is a clear violation of your constitutional rights though, and violating someone's constitutional rights (read: going against the constitution) can't be an official act by definition.
- MOARDONGZPLZ 2y ago
  This is explicitly about the POTUS being immune from prosecution for official acts like commanding ST6 to assassinate someone. Fortunately in some cases, unfortunately in others, semantic wordplay akin to “could god microwave a burrito so hot even they couldn’t eat it” has little effect in the court system. That is to say, semantic gotchas like “but actually it couldn’t be an official act because the very act is against the constitution” have no sway.
  - treeFall 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - MOARDONGZPLZ 2y ago
      I would encourage you to think through other, more reasonable, interpretations of what I said.
      - treeFall 2y ago
        Every sentence except for the first is about word games not mattering. The first sentence is what I am also addressing, so I don't see how it is making a new point. Help me out?
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  And you’re are free to sue the government in that case. The DOJ won’t prosecute the president for ordering something like that even after he leaves office..
- Miner49er 2y ago
sf_rob 2y ago
And every war since Vietnam has been a police action or military operation.

InTheArena 2y ago

commanding seal team 6 to assassinate a sitting head of state is a act of war, and only congress can declare war.

ceejayoz 2y ago
We've made it very clear for decades that the President can commit acts of war without declaring it. Syria, Lybia, Iraq, Afghanistan, and dozens of other hotspots around the world.
- InTheArena 2y ago
  so fix that.
- Jsebast24 2y ago
  Add Ukraine.
  - ceejayoz 2y ago
    What act of war has the US directly committed against Russia within Ukraine?
gortok 2y ago
That hasn't stopped any president in the last 60 years from using the Armed Forces to conduct a war -- or "police action" -- if you prefer.
- InTheArena 2y ago
  You picked a bad example, as both Korea and Vietnam had congressional authorization. Obama drone wars would be the one to look at.
  - gortok 2y ago
    Congress hasn't declared war after WWII. I suppose that's why you used the euphemism "congressional authorization"; instead of what was intended by the folks that wrote the constitution -- a declaration of war.
vlovich123 2y ago
But assasinating private citizens a ok? So Biden can order the assassination of Trump? Even if you claim as someone else that you can’t violate someone’s constitutional rights within an official act, we have already killed US citizens abroad via drone strikes. So if Trump is in some foreign country we can drop an a-bomb and claim it was to kill some terrorist & that’s a ok? The minority points out that official acts was already a defense. The majority opinion here claims that it’s an absolute immunity and even motivation is impervious to this immunity claim. This is a serious undermining of the rule of law in a substantial way and paves the way for the US to have a dictatorship at some point in the future.
- InTheArena 2y ago
  Please go read the full ruling. That's not what it says. It's an immunity only for official acts, not unofficial ones.
  - vlovich123 2y ago
    So first, the distinction between official acts and unofficial acts isn’t actually defined and even Robert’s admits this ambiguity is going to be a problem: > Determining which acts are official and which are unofficial “can be difficult,” Roberts conceded. He emphasized that the immunity that the court recognizes in its ruling on Monday takes a broad view of what constitutes a president’s “official responsibilities,” “covering actions so long as they are not manifestly or palpably beyond his authority.” In conducting the official/unofficial inquiry, Roberts added, courts cannot consider the president’s motives, nor can they designate an act as unofficial simply because it allegedly violates the law. https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/07/justices-rule-trump-has-some-immunity-from-prosecution/ https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/07/justices-rule-trump-has-s... Basically the President has a presumption that his behavior is an official act unless it’s egregiously outside his powers but there’s also no way to really investigate it. Oh and it’s also combined with the unitary executive theory popular on the right which holds that the president basically has absolute power over all executive agencies and a growing interpretation of the powers of the president (under both parties) which is a scary scenario. And given that the dissenting opinion from SCOTUS justices literally raises the exact scenario you’re assuming is unofficial, so dismissing it out of hand seems overly bold: > The President of the United States is the most powerful person in the country, and possibly the world. When he uses his official powers in any way, under the majority’s reasoning, he now will be insulated from criminal prosecution. Orders the Navy’s Seal Team 6 to assassinate a political rival? Immune. Organizes a military coup to hold onto power? Immune. Takes a bribe in exchange for a pardon? Immune. Immune, immune, immune. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/23pdf/23-939_e2pg.pdf You can disagree with the dissents, but even Justice Barrett outlines some very serious problems with the reasoning in the majority opinion while Justice Thomas says they should go further and completely rule Jack Smith’s investigation unconstitutional outright.

treeFall 2y ago

Being killed by the government without due process of law (ie: death penalty for convicted criminals) is a clear violation of your constitutional rights though, and violating someone's constitutional rights (read: going against the constitution) can't be an official act by definition.

MOARDONGZPLZ 2y ago
This is explicitly about the POTUS being immune from prosecution for official acts like commanding ST6 to assassinate someone. Fortunately in some cases, unfortunately in others, semantic wordplay akin to “could god microwave a burrito so hot even they couldn’t eat it” has little effect in the court system. That is to say, semantic gotchas like “but actually it couldn’t be an official act because the very act is against the constitution” have no sway.
- treeFall 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - MOARDONGZPLZ 2y ago
    I would encourage you to think through other, more reasonable, interpretations of what I said.
    - treeFall 2y ago
      Every sentence except for the first is about word games not mattering. The first sentence is what I am also addressing, so I don't see how it is making a new point. Help me out?
ffgjgf1 2y ago
And you’re are free to sue the government in that case. The DOJ won’t prosecute the president for ordering something like that even after he leaves office..
Miner49er 2y ago

sf_rob 2y ago

And every war since Vietnam has been a police action or military operation.