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There’s a huge difference between “I think I can get away with this” and “The Supreme Court says I have absolute immunity”.

danielmarkbruce 2y ago
Except the ruling doesn't say that.
- skhunted 2y ago
  While a president has total immunity for exercising “core constitutional powers,” a sitting or former president also has “presumptive immunity” for all official acts. That immunity, wrote Chief Justice John Roberts in the majority opinion, “extends to the outer perimeter of the President’s official responsibilities, covering actions so long as they are not manifestly or palpably beyond his authority.”
- redserk 2y ago
  What’s exactly said and what are the practical impacts are two completely different things. It will take many, many cases to elaborate on what defines an official act and what exactly decides immunity, and in the process we could see a lot of potential what-I’d-say is overreach. It is far too early to declare that there will be zero side effects from this — as with literally any Supreme Court ruling. We’ve already seen what qualified immunity gets us, and I’d bet many people didn’t expect it to go that way.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  It absolutely says that. A President, if they act in an "official" capacity, cannot later be charged with a crime for something they did in that official capacity. Not "can offer being an official as a defense", "cannot be charged". What is an official capacity? Well there's the traditional stuff like vetoes, appointments, and the like, but there's a lot of stuff that is far more nebulous. Does the President act in an official capacity when telling the Vice President what to do with regards to certifying an electoral college result? Well, if that's official, Trump has to be more-or-less let go for what happened on January 6th. We are now basically saying that it's up to a judge - who may or may not have been appointed by the President in question - to decide whether something was an official act. If it is? Welp, sorry the President's wanton order violated your Constitutional rights, but no trial.
  - willcipriano 2y ago
    Acts that are unconstitutional probably aren't official, by definition they are outside the scope of official duties, throw every living president into prison? Charge every act of violence ordered in places war is undeclared as war crimes? If not, the things they have on Trump seem like really small potatoes to zero in on.
    - lenerdenator 2y ago
      > Acts that are unconstitutional probably aren't official, by definition they are outside the scope of official duties, throw every living president into prison? You could make a very good case that drone strikes on American citizens in foreign lands that are a part of jihadist groups without due process are unconstitutional. And yet, it happens. According to the standard Roberts puts in place, things that are on the extreme periphery of the duties of the Presidency are exempt from criminal prosecution. Does this mean drone strikes? Almost certainly. The President has an enumerated power to command the armed forces. I fail to see why throwing all of the living Presidents in prison is a problem, particularly if they receive a day in court before getting thrown in prison. What this ruling does is create a class of American that can do some genuinely awful things and not be subject to legal process at all. There is no process, due or otherwise. The person gets to live their life as before. Trump's being tried because the things he did weren't small potatoes. Trying to overthrow the electoral process unilaterally is a state fair record-setting potato. It's a far more immediate and widespread risk to American life and liberty than the drone strikes on foreign land that I mentioned earlier. One impacts a few dozen Americans globally at most; the other impacts literally all of them.
      - danielmarkbruce 2y ago
        > things that are on the extreme periphery of the duties of the Presidency are exempt from criminal prosecution This is wrong, and your ability to make an argument suggests you know it is. And the most extreme acts being mentioned as risks are the exact ones where "presumptive" matters.

danielmarkbruce 2y ago

Except the ruling doesn't say that.

skhunted 2y ago
While a president has total immunity for exercising “core constitutional powers,” a sitting or former president also has “presumptive immunity” for all official acts. That immunity, wrote Chief Justice John Roberts in the majority opinion, “extends to the outer perimeter of the President’s official responsibilities, covering actions so long as they are not manifestly or palpably beyond his authority.”
redserk 2y ago
What’s exactly said and what are the practical impacts are two completely different things. It will take many, many cases to elaborate on what defines an official act and what exactly decides immunity, and in the process we could see a lot of potential what-I’d-say is overreach. It is far too early to declare that there will be zero side effects from this — as with literally any Supreme Court ruling. We’ve already seen what qualified immunity gets us, and I’d bet many people didn’t expect it to go that way.
lenerdenator 2y ago
It absolutely says that. A President, if they act in an "official" capacity, cannot later be charged with a crime for something they did in that official capacity. Not "can offer being an official as a defense", "cannot be charged". What is an official capacity? Well there's the traditional stuff like vetoes, appointments, and the like, but there's a lot of stuff that is far more nebulous. Does the President act in an official capacity when telling the Vice President what to do with regards to certifying an electoral college result? Well, if that's official, Trump has to be more-or-less let go for what happened on January 6th. We are now basically saying that it's up to a judge - who may or may not have been appointed by the President in question - to decide whether something was an official act. If it is? Welp, sorry the President's wanton order violated your Constitutional rights, but no trial.
- willcipriano 2y ago
  Acts that are unconstitutional probably aren't official, by definition they are outside the scope of official duties, throw every living president into prison? Charge every act of violence ordered in places war is undeclared as war crimes? If not, the things they have on Trump seem like really small potatoes to zero in on.
  - lenerdenator 2y ago
    > Acts that are unconstitutional probably aren't official, by definition they are outside the scope of official duties, throw every living president into prison? You could make a very good case that drone strikes on American citizens in foreign lands that are a part of jihadist groups without due process are unconstitutional. And yet, it happens. According to the standard Roberts puts in place, things that are on the extreme periphery of the duties of the Presidency are exempt from criminal prosecution. Does this mean drone strikes? Almost certainly. The President has an enumerated power to command the armed forces. I fail to see why throwing all of the living Presidents in prison is a problem, particularly if they receive a day in court before getting thrown in prison. What this ruling does is create a class of American that can do some genuinely awful things and not be subject to legal process at all. There is no process, due or otherwise. The person gets to live their life as before. Trump's being tried because the things he did weren't small potatoes. Trying to overthrow the electoral process unilaterally is a state fair record-setting potato. It's a far more immediate and widespread risk to American life and liberty than the drone strikes on foreign land that I mentioned earlier. One impacts a few dozen Americans globally at most; the other impacts literally all of them.
    - danielmarkbruce 2y ago
      > things that are on the extreme periphery of the duties of the Presidency are exempt from criminal prosecution This is wrong, and your ability to make an argument suggests you know it is. And the most extreme acts being mentioned as risks are the exact ones where "presumptive" matters.