4 ms·

DOJ readying criminal charges against Boeing for deadly 737 MAX crashes

61 points by KnuthIsGod 2y ago

ClumsyPilot 2y ago
Finally
- n1b0m 2y ago
  Lock ‘em up
  - loufe 2y ago
    If you're wondering why you're both getting downvoted, please think about what you've added to the discussion with these unsubstantial comments. It's happened to me and I learned from it. The discussions on HN are good because people put efforts into their comments and refrain from making them when they have nothing of interest to add to the discussion. The guidelines are a great place to start https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - ionwake 2y ago
      I’ve been downvoted for stating research papers regarding covid 19 markers so I’m pretty sure the votes are applied arbitrarily in my experience
      - flykespice 2y ago
        [flagged]
    - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
      [flagged]
riiii 2y ago
I'm sure it's a sacrifice the CEO is willing to make. He won't be criminally charged of course. I heard there's going to be some positions open soon at Boeing. Any takers?
- smcin 2y ago
  Predict how high up the chain of command criminal charges (and convictions) will go? (This weekend there is talk of a 'sweetheart' plea deal.)
- sofixa 2y ago
  Calhoun was CEO during the near-deadly current disaster, and was a chairman during the previous deadly ones. He's also on his way out, kept around to negotiate with the unions and catch all the negative PR that will come out of it, and not to give a bad start to the future CEO. Both him and Muillenberg (previous CEO and career engineer before someone says "they just have to put engineers back in charge") need to spend a few years in prison for killing and nearly killing people. Hopefully this will provide the necessary boost to Boeing fixing their culture.
- teeray 2y ago
  Yep, if a punishment can just get neatly tied up on a balance sheet, explained to shareholders, and dealt with like any old loan balance, is it really a punishment?
riiii 2y ago
I remember this recent story about a train maintenance engineer in the US. He said that regularly his superiors would come to him and tell him that some part X didn't need a maintenance now. He would then ask them to put their initials on the maintenance sheet. Suddenly maintenance was required! If you work for Boeing or other criminal syndication, you need to have a paper/digital trail. Otherwise you'll be the one under the bus.
- poikroequ 2y ago
  This is good advice in general, it doesn't have to be criminal in nature. Anything you're ordered to do that you don't want to be blamed for later, get it in writing, have a paper trail.
- WesolyKubeczek 2y ago
  Doesn't it work like this that if you do it, and you end up a thorn in someone's arse, and somehow the paper/digital trail you build doesn't disappear in time despite hints you receive, an unfortunate accident will happen to you?
Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago
The banking crisis, VW's diesel-gate, BP's florida oil spills, the list of corporate crimes (not accidents, not whoopsies, but deliberate law breaking) is lengthy. They get away with it. Every time. I don't expect anything different happening this time.
- aqme28 2y ago
  Maybe they charge a few engineers or low-level managers. I doubt anyone C-suite is going to prison.
- eastbound 2y ago
  Of course. The simple fact that it is a news that the DOJ is involved, 3 years later, shows how little we expect. Least we say “The DOJ launches criminal charges”. Nonono. The DOJ is “readying” criminal charges. The DOJ wrote something ON A PAPER, peons!
- petesergeant 2y ago
  Is zero the optimal amount of deliberate law breaking by corporations?
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    Irrelevant. However many do break the law, should be facing consequences. Otherwise, from the point of view of the CEO the optimal number of laws to break is all of them.
jmyeet 2y ago
Dismantling government oversight of corporations is sadly the dream of some under the guise of "small government". I understand why the very wealthy and the corporations do it. I don't understand why average Joes cheer for it. Weak government oversight is going to make every aspect of your life worse. It's going to poison the air you breathe, the water you drink and the food you eat. It's going to make cars less safe. It's going to make air travel less safe. Fines are the cost of doing business. These companies won't change their ways until thee executives responsible end up going to prison (or worse [1]). We have the likes of the Sacklers who became billionaires killing millions. In a just word, every one of them would die penniless in a 6x8' cell. The (political) decision to overturn Chevron last week is going to make all of this worse because the likes of Boeing is going to challenge the authority of the FAA, the FTC and the NTSB in court. It's going to find a friendly judge (likely in Texas, which is built for judge shopping) and argue those agencies don't have the authority to oversee them. Or just to temporarily stay or overrule any decision that goes against them. This is now the world we live in. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-milk-scandal-pair https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes...
- _heimdall 2y ago
  > Weak government oversight is going to make every aspect of your life worse. It's going to poison the air you breathe, the water you drink and the food you eat. It's going to make cars less safe. It's going to make air travel less safe. There's another side to this coin though. The US already has a huge list of government regulations and people paid to do nothing but regulate industry. Those industries currently poisonthe air we breathe, the water we drink, and the food we eat. Are we to assume that regulation would work if we only have more than today, or that regulation didn't work despite how much we've thrown into it already? One approach is to further regulate industry. Another approach is to remove legal protections that prevent corporations and corporate leaders being held legally liable for what they do. And I don't mean liable for fines amounting to fractions of profit and no risk of bankruptcy. Companies should be allowed to fail if they cause damage at such a scale, and leader/employees shown to actively make those decisions should be personally liable. The challenge with less regulation is really that it moves responsibility back to the consumer, and it sure seems like most people really don't want to take responsibility for many aspect of their daily lives. That sounds horribly cynical, I don't know a better way to phrase it but it is absolutely true. Our bent on blindly trusting those considered experts is a great example of it, as is our blind faith in all modern pharmaceuticals as an alternative to accepting that sometimes our health issues are linked to decisions we make and how we live our lives.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40841004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40841004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40841651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40841651

61 points by KnuthIsGod 2y ago

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

Finally

n1b0m 2y ago
Lock ‘em up
- loufe 2y ago
  If you're wondering why you're both getting downvoted, please think about what you've added to the discussion with these unsubstantial comments. It's happened to me and I learned from it. The discussions on HN are good because people put efforts into their comments and refrain from making them when they have nothing of interest to add to the discussion. The guidelines are a great place to start https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - ionwake 2y ago
    I’ve been downvoted for stating research papers regarding covid 19 markers so I’m pretty sure the votes are applied arbitrarily in my experience
    - flykespice 2y ago
      [flagged]
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    [flagged]

riiii 2y ago

I'm sure it's a sacrifice the CEO is willing to make. He won't be criminally charged of course. I heard there's going to be some positions open soon at Boeing. Any takers?

smcin 2y ago
Predict how high up the chain of command criminal charges (and convictions) will go? (This weekend there is talk of a 'sweetheart' plea deal.)
sofixa 2y ago
Calhoun was CEO during the near-deadly current disaster, and was a chairman during the previous deadly ones. He's also on his way out, kept around to negotiate with the unions and catch all the negative PR that will come out of it, and not to give a bad start to the future CEO. Both him and Muillenberg (previous CEO and career engineer before someone says "they just have to put engineers back in charge") need to spend a few years in prison for killing and nearly killing people. Hopefully this will provide the necessary boost to Boeing fixing their culture.
teeray 2y ago
Yep, if a punishment can just get neatly tied up on a balance sheet, explained to shareholders, and dealt with like any old loan balance, is it really a punishment?

riiii 2y ago

I remember this recent story about a train maintenance engineer in the US. He said that regularly his superiors would come to him and tell him that some part X didn't need a maintenance now. He would then ask them to put their initials on the maintenance sheet. Suddenly maintenance was required! If you work for Boeing or other criminal syndication, you need to have a paper/digital trail. Otherwise you'll be the one under the bus.

poikroequ 2y ago
This is good advice in general, it doesn't have to be criminal in nature. Anything you're ordered to do that you don't want to be blamed for later, get it in writing, have a paper trail.
WesolyKubeczek 2y ago
Doesn't it work like this that if you do it, and you end up a thorn in someone's arse, and somehow the paper/digital trail you build doesn't disappear in time despite hints you receive, an unfortunate accident will happen to you?

Eddy_Viscosity2 2y ago

The banking crisis, VW's diesel-gate, BP's florida oil spills, the list of corporate crimes (not accidents, not whoopsies, but deliberate law breaking) is lengthy. They get away with it. Every time. I don't expect anything different happening this time.

aqme28 2y ago
Maybe they charge a few engineers or low-level managers. I doubt anyone C-suite is going to prison.
eastbound 2y ago
Of course. The simple fact that it is a news that the DOJ is involved, 3 years later, shows how little we expect. Least we say “The DOJ launches criminal charges”. Nonono. The DOJ is “readying” criminal charges. The DOJ wrote something ON A PAPER, peons!
petesergeant 2y ago
Is zero the optimal amount of deliberate law breaking by corporations?
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  Irrelevant. However many do break the law, should be facing consequences. Otherwise, from the point of view of the CEO the optimal number of laws to break is all of them.

jmyeet 2y ago

Dismantling government oversight of corporations is sadly the dream of some under the guise of "small government". I understand why the very wealthy and the corporations do it. I don't understand why average Joes cheer for it. Weak government oversight is going to make every aspect of your life worse. It's going to poison the air you breathe, the water you drink and the food you eat. It's going to make cars less safe. It's going to make air travel less safe. Fines are the cost of doing business. These companies won't change their ways until thee executives responsible end up going to prison (or worse [1]). We have the likes of the Sacklers who became billionaires killing millions. In a just word, every one of them would die penniless in a 6x8' cell. The (political) decision to overturn Chevron last week is going to make all of this worse because the likes of Boeing is going to challenge the authority of the FAA, the FTC and the NTSB in court. It's going to find a friendly judge (likely in Texas, which is built for judge shopping) and argue those agencies don't have the authority to oversee them. Or just to temporarily stay or overrule any decision that goes against them. This is now the world we live in. [1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes-milk-scandal-pair https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/nov/24/china-executes...

_heimdall 2y ago
> Weak government oversight is going to make every aspect of your life worse. It's going to poison the air you breathe, the water you drink and the food you eat. It's going to make cars less safe. It's going to make air travel less safe. There's another side to this coin though. The US already has a huge list of government regulations and people paid to do nothing but regulate industry. Those industries currently poisonthe air we breathe, the water we drink, and the food we eat. Are we to assume that regulation would work if we only have more than today, or that regulation didn't work despite how much we've thrown into it already? One approach is to further regulate industry. Another approach is to remove legal protections that prevent corporations and corporate leaders being held legally liable for what they do. And I don't mean liable for fines amounting to fractions of profit and no risk of bankruptcy. Companies should be allowed to fail if they cause damage at such a scale, and leader/employees shown to actively make those decisions should be personally liable. The challenge with less regulation is really that it moves responsibility back to the consumer, and it sure seems like most people really don't want to take responsibility for many aspect of their daily lives. That sounds horribly cynical, I don't know a better way to phrase it but it is absolutely true. Our bent on blindly trusting those considered experts is a great example of it, as is our blind faith in all modern pharmaceuticals as an alternative to accepting that sometimes our health issues are linked to decisions we make and how we live our lives.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] More discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40841004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40841004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40841651 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40841651