3 ms·

Funny how social skills and agreeability is measured by observing how well a candidate answers a loaded question with a BS answer. That's just the way the world

Funny how social skills and agreeability is measured by observing how well a candidate answers a loaded question with a BS answer. That's just the way the world works, we can't get a long with someone who's straight forward and frighteningly honest.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
The answer doesn't have to be BS. It can be true, relevant to the question, and even interesting. Pulling that off is the social skills test. Being straight forward and honest is relatively easy. Doing so in a agreeable way to your audience is a lot harder, and usually a highly sought after skill.
- ninetyninenine 2y ago
  I disagree with this. I feel you can be honest but not straightforward. You manipulate the audience by not telling the whole truth or twisting the emotions around the truth in a manipulative way. To me this is equivalent to if not more dishonest then lying to someone's face as doing this kind of manipulation allows you to get away with a technicality that you "didn't lie" when in fact the intent was exactly the same: To deceive. The god awful truth is that most people just want money.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Not just money. Many of us just want a job that pays pretty well, doesn't require too much overtime, doesn't stress us out too much, isn't too far from home, and has some decent coworkers to work with. Why so many companies can't just offer this and get some dependable, competent employees and be happy with that, I'm not sure, but I know it has something to do with the mentalities of people who become founders or high-up managers.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I disagree on both counts. I didn't mean to imply anything about lying or misleading. Similarly, I don't think it is manipulation to consider your audience and what they are trying to ask. The best coworkers I've had were honest and straightforward, but could understand and emphasize with their audience too. I think everyone who takes this question literally at face value is missing the second half of that. I think most people want a nearly endless list of things, of which money is just one of the most important. For example, most people won't be happy with if you give them money but treat them like shit and over work them with frustrating tasks.
  - __loam 2y ago
    The harder truth is that it's rare to find the perfect job, and rare to find the perfect candidate. There's an assumption with many of the views in this thread that the employment market is more efficient than it is at matching people.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I dont think the assumption is perfection. I think the assumption is that a decent candidate should be able to come up with at least one thing they like about a company or look forward to when given a completely blank slate to work with.
      - __loam 2y ago
        I’ll start caring when you tell me I’m getting an offer.
- garspin 2y ago
  > Pulling that off is the social skills test. Surely the most significant side effect of any F2F interview is to evaluate social skills. An answer that the interviewer fully expects to be a lie just isn't required. Anyway... "Why do you want to employ me over other candidates ? "
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Who said anything about lies? In my experience, the primary goal of F2F interviews is to evaluate social skills like communication.
    - lomase 2y ago
      The only goal is to evaluate social skills. For people who lack social skills the best way to pass those test is to lie, wich is pretty easy.
pgorczak 2y ago
That’s one way to frame it. The other would be the candidate being able to understand that the “apart from money” part is implied in the question and the answer given the social context. This makes the money answer go from straightforward and honest to blunt and cringeworthy.
- mariusor 2y ago
  Based on the answers in this thread it seems like there's a large chunk of people for whom the "apart from money" is not implied. And I think that's what TFA is in support of any way. Neurotypical people might understand it like that, but a large chunk of developers might not be neurotypical and don't feel like, or don't have the capacity for expending energy into finding a socially acceptable answer.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    That's exactly the social skills the interview is screening for. Determining if someone can handle relatively simple questions, of you if the employee will struggle.
    - mariusor 2y ago
      And does that seem reasonable to you? I hate to brandish trendy terms, but it sounds a little ableist. [edit] Also, what will the developer struggle with if they're not able to come up with a convenient response to "why do you want to work for us?".
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Yes, it seems completely reasonable to me. I dont want to work with employees who dont understand simple questions any more than I want to work with people who cant program. There might be some code factory situations where it might not matter, but everywhere I worked being able to understand and communicate is an important part of the job. Employees who don't understand a question, dont see it as personal issue, and then resent the counterparty are the worst kind of coworkers. [edit] >Also, what will the developer struggle with if they're not able to come up with a convenient response to "why do you want to work for us?". I with this kind of hostile literalism I would worry about having miscommunications along the time "you asked if I could finish the task by tomorrow, not if I will do the task by tomorrow".

s1artibartfast 2y ago

The answer doesn't have to be BS. It can be true, relevant to the question, and even interesting. Pulling that off is the social skills test. Being straight forward and honest is relatively easy. Doing so in a agreeable way to your audience is a lot harder, and usually a highly sought after skill.

ninetyninenine 2y ago
I disagree with this. I feel you can be honest but not straightforward. You manipulate the audience by not telling the whole truth or twisting the emotions around the truth in a manipulative way. To me this is equivalent to if not more dishonest then lying to someone's face as doing this kind of manipulation allows you to get away with a technicality that you "didn't lie" when in fact the intent was exactly the same: To deceive. The god awful truth is that most people just want money.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  Not just money. Many of us just want a job that pays pretty well, doesn't require too much overtime, doesn't stress us out too much, isn't too far from home, and has some decent coworkers to work with. Why so many companies can't just offer this and get some dependable, competent employees and be happy with that, I'm not sure, but I know it has something to do with the mentalities of people who become founders or high-up managers.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I disagree on both counts. I didn't mean to imply anything about lying or misleading. Similarly, I don't think it is manipulation to consider your audience and what they are trying to ask. The best coworkers I've had were honest and straightforward, but could understand and emphasize with their audience too. I think everyone who takes this question literally at face value is missing the second half of that. I think most people want a nearly endless list of things, of which money is just one of the most important. For example, most people won't be happy with if you give them money but treat them like shit and over work them with frustrating tasks.
- __loam 2y ago
  The harder truth is that it's rare to find the perfect job, and rare to find the perfect candidate. There's an assumption with many of the views in this thread that the employment market is more efficient than it is at matching people.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I dont think the assumption is perfection. I think the assumption is that a decent candidate should be able to come up with at least one thing they like about a company or look forward to when given a completely blank slate to work with.
    - __loam 2y ago
      I’ll start caring when you tell me I’m getting an offer.
garspin 2y ago
> Pulling that off is the social skills test. Surely the most significant side effect of any F2F interview is to evaluate social skills. An answer that the interviewer fully expects to be a lie just isn't required. Anyway... "Why do you want to employ me over other candidates ? "
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Who said anything about lies? In my experience, the primary goal of F2F interviews is to evaluate social skills like communication.
  - lomase 2y ago
    The only goal is to evaluate social skills. For people who lack social skills the best way to pass those test is to lie, wich is pretty easy.

pgorczak 2y ago

That’s one way to frame it. The other would be the candidate being able to understand that the “apart from money” part is implied in the question and the answer given the social context. This makes the money answer go from straightforward and honest to blunt and cringeworthy.

mariusor 2y ago
Based on the answers in this thread it seems like there's a large chunk of people for whom the "apart from money" is not implied. And I think that's what TFA is in support of any way. Neurotypical people might understand it like that, but a large chunk of developers might not be neurotypical and don't feel like, or don't have the capacity for expending energy into finding a socially acceptable answer.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  That's exactly the social skills the interview is screening for. Determining if someone can handle relatively simple questions, of you if the employee will struggle.
  - mariusor 2y ago
    And does that seem reasonable to you? I hate to brandish trendy terms, but it sounds a little ableist. [edit] Also, what will the developer struggle with if they're not able to come up with a convenient response to "why do you want to work for us?".
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Yes, it seems completely reasonable to me. I dont want to work with employees who dont understand simple questions any more than I want to work with people who cant program. There might be some code factory situations where it might not matter, but everywhere I worked being able to understand and communicate is an important part of the job. Employees who don't understand a question, dont see it as personal issue, and then resent the counterparty are the worst kind of coworkers. [edit] >Also, what will the developer struggle with if they're not able to come up with a convenient response to "why do you want to work for us?". I with this kind of hostile literalism I would worry about having miscommunications along the time "you asked if I could finish the task by tomorrow, not if I will do the task by tomorrow".