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This is the kind of research I've been yearning to see on suicide. Just telling people not to, or to call a hotline, seemed like the worst most patronizing adv

This is the kind of research I've been yearning to see on suicide. Just telling people not to, or to call a hotline, seemed like the worst most patronizing advice as it never solved the underlying thing. I've since learned that there is a subset of suicidal people where that's enough, where the suicidal tendency is a kneejerk decision that can be disrupted, but it bugged me that its not serving everyone that becomes suicidal with a recurring condition that's not improved by merely being present. It always feel like people are too uncomfortable to talk about it enough, or to question the response measures. A "I'm Helping!" sentiment by copy and pasting a suicide hotline memo, when they're not helping at all, just offloading their discomfort into a protective layer for their own psyche. In contrast, I'm comfortable enough to wonder whether suicide was the most rationale and objectively best choice, as someone with strong self preservation circuits you can see how far apart I am from everyone else. But this is opinion, a hunch, what I really want is a data driven analysis of the conditions. As with real science, I am accepting of any conclusion, instead of trying to conform a conclusion to preventing it if prevention isn't what winds up being on the table with our current infrastructure.

pedalpete 2y ago
It's important to view suicide not from the "I don't want to live" perspective and rather from the "I don't want to be in pain" viewpoint. I feel this article does a good job of not explicitly saying this when describing what must have been an agonizing existence for David Metcalf before he took his life.
- theGnuMe 2y ago
  Correct. Pain is the explanation. It's obvious when you realize that opioids relieve depression. They aren't a good long term solution though.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Suffering as a more general term IMHO... I can imagine having no pain per se, but being so bogged down from few well placed catastrophes in life that continuing would be much harder than not.
CapstanRoller 2y ago
One way to think about it is via the concept of body autonomy/sovereignty: your life is in your hands. IMHO dignified peaceful suicide should be a right granted to all free individuals. If one is free to live, why is one not free to die? But that is too radical of an idea, and upsets all sorts of people (especially the money men) Sometimes opting out is the only rational choice. If there is no support in society for an individual who cannot work and generate profit, if there is no support in society for an individual who is terminally ill (expensive palliative care aside), if there is no support in society for an individual who has "fallen throigh the cracks" (and the cracks are mighty wide), then what is there to do? Slowly die on the street? This thinking can lead to all kinds of dark paths, such as the state being in charge of the matter (and abusing it, as they can already abuse it via the carceral system), but ultimately we have to confront the fact that as a society we often leave people with no way out, collectively shrug our shoulders, and then act horrified when they take the only viable option that immediately removes all suffering. People who are uncomfortable with suicide are ultimately uncomfortable with facing the reality that they live in a society that encourages it.
- yieldcrv 2y ago
  > People who are uncomfortable with suicide are ultimately uncomfortable with facing the reality that they live in a society that encourages it. It really does seem like projection. In the US, neighbors will pay for your funeral but not your insulin. Collective disinterest in being confronted with the problem.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    > In the US, neighbors will pay for your funeral They do? Genuinely curious.
- enugu 2y ago
  Suicides do not just happen due to being in extreme, incurable pain. People commit suicides due to emotions which seem powerful immediately(failure in love life, academics, career etc.) but would not seem as such a big deal if they were to look back on it afterwards either due to the passing of time or due to finding something else which made life worthwhile. This also is the problem with the autonomy argument - this is not what the person might themselves would choose if they were in a more sober mood. The autonomy argument is also seen as invalid in other situations like when signing oneself to slavery. Money men being against suicide for economic reasons runs contrary another other point in your post - money might be saved by the suicide of the invalid and sick. Making suicide legal can easily be abused by powerful state officials incentivizing people to commit suicide for economic or political reasons. So yes, create a good social support system, but don't encourage suicide.
midjji 2y ago
You say that suicide hotlines are more for the friends of people at risk, than the people at risk, as if it is a bad thing. We as a society generally dont know how to help people who consider suicide for its myriad of causes. We do know how to help their friends though, and pretending that there is help to be had is a big part of it.

pedalpete 2y ago

It's important to view suicide not from the "I don't want to live" perspective and rather from the "I don't want to be in pain" viewpoint. I feel this article does a good job of not explicitly saying this when describing what must have been an agonizing existence for David Metcalf before he took his life.

theGnuMe 2y ago
Correct. Pain is the explanation. It's obvious when you realize that opioids relieve depression. They aren't a good long term solution though.
- jajko 2y ago
  Suffering as a more general term IMHO... I can imagine having no pain per se, but being so bogged down from few well placed catastrophes in life that continuing would be much harder than not.

CapstanRoller 2y ago

One way to think about it is via the concept of body autonomy/sovereignty: your life is in your hands. IMHO dignified peaceful suicide should be a right granted to all free individuals. If one is free to live, why is one not free to die? But that is too radical of an idea, and upsets all sorts of people (especially the money men) Sometimes opting out is the only rational choice. If there is no support in society for an individual who cannot work and generate profit, if there is no support in society for an individual who is terminally ill (expensive palliative care aside), if there is no support in society for an individual who has "fallen throigh the cracks" (and the cracks are mighty wide), then what is there to do? Slowly die on the street? This thinking can lead to all kinds of dark paths, such as the state being in charge of the matter (and abusing it, as they can already abuse it via the carceral system), but ultimately we have to confront the fact that as a society we often leave people with no way out, collectively shrug our shoulders, and then act horrified when they take the only viable option that immediately removes all suffering. People who are uncomfortable with suicide are ultimately uncomfortable with facing the reality that they live in a society that encourages it.

yieldcrv 2y ago
> People who are uncomfortable with suicide are ultimately uncomfortable with facing the reality that they live in a society that encourages it. It really does seem like projection. In the US, neighbors will pay for your funeral but not your insulin. Collective disinterest in being confronted with the problem.
- johnisgood 2y ago
  > In the US, neighbors will pay for your funeral They do? Genuinely curious.
enugu 2y ago
Suicides do not just happen due to being in extreme, incurable pain. People commit suicides due to emotions which seem powerful immediately(failure in love life, academics, career etc.) but would not seem as such a big deal if they were to look back on it afterwards either due to the passing of time or due to finding something else which made life worthwhile. This also is the problem with the autonomy argument - this is not what the person might themselves would choose if they were in a more sober mood. The autonomy argument is also seen as invalid in other situations like when signing oneself to slavery. Money men being against suicide for economic reasons runs contrary another other point in your post - money might be saved by the suicide of the invalid and sick. Making suicide legal can easily be abused by powerful state officials incentivizing people to commit suicide for economic or political reasons. So yes, create a good social support system, but don't encourage suicide.

midjji 2y ago

You say that suicide hotlines are more for the friends of people at risk, than the people at risk, as if it is a bad thing. We as a society generally dont know how to help people who consider suicide for its myriad of causes. We do know how to help their friends though, and pretending that there is help to be had is a big part of it.