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That argument was used (a lot) to decry suffragette protests and desegregation protests. I for one am glad that women and black people didn't take it too serio

That argument was used (a lot) to decry suffragette protests and desegregation protests. I for one am glad that women and black people didn't take it too seriously. You may want to read some MLK - he had some very clear words about the liberal who demands civility in the face of oppression.

CamperBob2 2y ago
So MLK and the suffragettes blockaded the town square and blew truck horns all night. Got it. Oh, wait, no, they voluntarily sacrificed their freedom and were arrested, beaten, and tortured for their beliefs. I guess you're confused.
- mandmandam 2y ago
  Suffragettes did block roads, yes. So did MLK. Lol.
- sys_64738 2y ago
  Not forgetting being executed by the government. Trumpers from the 1950s and 1960s.
- dang 2y ago
  You posted many flamewar comments in this thread and appear to have done more than any other single account to spoil it. We ban accounts that do this, and your account has (it turns out) been doing it for a long long time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34537163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34537163 (Jan 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22904111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22904111 (April 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22114100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22114100 (Jan 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449785 (March 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18233901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18233901 (Oct 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16783015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16783015 (April 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14278148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14278148 (May 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10780427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10780427 (Dec 2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9985956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9985956 (Aug 2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825352 (Jan 2015) That's excessive and abusive. We need you, same as any other user, to follow the site guidelines regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are. I appreciate your substantive posts but it's also the case that you've been posting abusively in totally other contexts (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40759689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40759689). If you keep this up we're going to have to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this, that would be good.
  - CamperBob2 2y ago
    Actually I think I'll stand by quite a few of those comments, Dan, including the ones I've posted in this thread. If you feel the need to ban my account, I won't stand in the way, but I will say I don't respect a lot of the objections you've gone back almost 10 years to dig up, especially when considered in the larger context of the threads in question. Don't want flame wars? Don't post flamewar-inciting links, as many of those arguably are, then object selectively when some people take the bait you're dangling.
    - dang 2y ago
      > Don't want flame wars? Don't post flamewar-inciting links That's not how HN works. Commenters are responsible for how they react and whether or not they follow the rules. It's not as if you have zero choice in whether you get incited or not, although I know it sometimes feels that way (to me too). To remove an entire topic to prevent some commenters from posting abusively would be to punish the ones who are following the rules just fine. I don't think that's how HN should operate. Here's another recent post in case it's of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852027 Of course, not every story is on topic for HN, and indeed most provocative stories aren't—but that's a separate question. Some are, and the rules still apply in those cases. In fact, they apply especially then, as the guidelines make clear: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
throw0101b 2y ago
> You may want to read some MLK - he had some very clear words about the liberal who demands civility in the face of oppression. It is not about acting civilly. It is about messaging. If non-movement people consider you as a bunch of jackasses, do you think they will join your cause, or even have sympathy towards it? You need to communicate your message—words and actions—so that, at the very least, people will have a neutral opinion. If you're actually good, then people will have a positive opinion of you and your goals. > Days later, King was quietly bailed out and ejected from prison by Albany police chief Laurie Pritchett, who had studied the nonviolence protest method and released King to undermine it. In other cities, violence by police against peaceful demonstrators brought outcry and sympathy. But Pritchett met nonviolence with nonviolence. Within weeks, the protest fizzled out. For King, Albany was largely a failure, and his takeaway was for the movement to better pick its spots. […] > It was far from total victory, but King had something more important: the attention of an outraged and rapt nation. The legacy of the water cannons and dogs, of callused feet and imprisoned children, would be incarnated in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act and the Twenty-Fourth Amendment, which banned poll taxes. Montgomery and Birmingham also formed the script for peaceably countering injustice in a nation founded on protest. From antiwar protests during Vietnam to Occupy Wall Street and beyond, King’s commitment to nonviolent protest lives on. * https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protests-lessons/ https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protest... It is why violence is usually such a bad idea: most non-members of a movement don't want to get into that, and would probably see the movement as a bunch of thugs. In a survey of 600 movements since 1900, Chenoweth et al found that those that used violence were successful ~25% of the time, but non-violence had a >40% success rate. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44096650-civil-resistance https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44096650-civil-resistanc... * https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2021-10-19/civil-resistance-what-everyone-needs-know https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2021-1... * https://www.hks.harvard.edu/behind-the-book/erica-chenoweth-civil-resistance https://www.hks.harvard.edu/behind-the-book/erica-chenoweth-... * https://www.peacejusticestudies.org/chronicle/review-of-civil-resistance-what-everyone-needs-to-know/ https://www.peacejusticestudies.org/chronicle/review-of-civi... You almost double your chances of success by gaining sympathy versus 'acting out'. Do you think the race riots helped or hindered the civil rights movement? > Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve. That in a real sense it is impracticable for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots, and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. And continue to affirm that there is another way. * https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm If you want to actually achieve your goal(s) then non-violence and public opinion are important things to consider.

CamperBob2 2y ago

So MLK and the suffragettes blockaded the town square and blew truck horns all night. Got it. Oh, wait, no, they voluntarily sacrificed their freedom and were arrested, beaten, and tortured for their beliefs. I guess you're confused.

mandmandam 2y ago
Suffragettes did block roads, yes. So did MLK. Lol.
sys_64738 2y ago
Not forgetting being executed by the government. Trumpers from the 1950s and 1960s.
dang 2y ago
You posted many flamewar comments in this thread and appear to have done more than any other single account to spoil it. We ban accounts that do this, and your account has (it turns out) been doing it for a long long time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34537163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34537163 (Jan 2023) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22904111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22904111 (April 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22114100 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22114100 (Jan 2020) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449785 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19449785 (March 2019) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18233901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18233901 (Oct 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16783015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16783015 (April 2018) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14278148 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14278148 (May 2017) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10780427 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10780427 (Dec 2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9985956 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9985956 (Aug 2015) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825352 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8825352 (Jan 2015) That's excessive and abusive. We need you, same as any other user, to follow the site guidelines regardless of how right you are or feel you are, and regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are. I appreciate your substantive posts but it's also the case that you've been posting abusively in totally other contexts (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40759689 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40759689). If you keep this up we're going to have to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and fix this, that would be good.
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  Actually I think I'll stand by quite a few of those comments, Dan, including the ones I've posted in this thread. If you feel the need to ban my account, I won't stand in the way, but I will say I don't respect a lot of the objections you've gone back almost 10 years to dig up, especially when considered in the larger context of the threads in question. Don't want flame wars? Don't post flamewar-inciting links, as many of those arguably are, then object selectively when some people take the bait you're dangling.
  - dang 2y ago
    > Don't want flame wars? Don't post flamewar-inciting links That's not how HN works. Commenters are responsible for how they react and whether or not they follow the rules. It's not as if you have zero choice in whether you get incited or not, although I know it sometimes feels that way (to me too). To remove an entire topic to prevent some commenters from posting abusively would be to punish the ones who are following the rules just fine. I don't think that's how HN should operate. Here's another recent post in case it's of interest: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40852027 Of course, not every story is on topic for HN, and indeed most provocative stories aren't—but that's a separate question. Some are, and the rules still apply in those cases. In fact, they apply especially then, as the guidelines make clear: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

throw0101b 2y ago

> You may want to read some MLK - he had some very clear words about the liberal who demands civility in the face of oppression. It is not about acting civilly. It is about messaging. If non-movement people consider you as a bunch of jackasses, do you think they will join your cause, or even have sympathy towards it? You need to communicate your message—words and actions—so that, at the very least, people will have a neutral opinion. If you're actually good, then people will have a positive opinion of you and your goals. > Days later, King was quietly bailed out and ejected from prison by Albany police chief Laurie Pritchett, who had studied the nonviolence protest method and released King to undermine it. In other cities, violence by police against peaceful demonstrators brought outcry and sympathy. But Pritchett met nonviolence with nonviolence. Within weeks, the protest fizzled out. For King, Albany was largely a failure, and his takeaway was for the movement to better pick its spots. […] > It was far from total victory, but King had something more important: the attention of an outraged and rapt nation. The legacy of the water cannons and dogs, of callused feet and imprisoned children, would be incarnated in the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act and the Twenty-Fourth Amendment, which banned poll taxes. Montgomery and Birmingham also formed the script for peaceably countering injustice in a nation founded on protest. From antiwar protests during Vietnam to Occupy Wall Street and beyond, King’s commitment to nonviolent protest lives on. * https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protests-lessons/ https://time.com/5101740/martin-luther-king-peaceful-protest... It is why violence is usually such a bad idea: most non-members of a movement don't want to get into that, and would probably see the movement as a bunch of thugs. In a survey of 600 movements since 1900, Chenoweth et al found that those that used violence were successful ~25% of the time, but non-violence had a >40% success rate. * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44096650-civil-resistance https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44096650-civil-resistanc... * https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2021-10-19/civil-resistance-what-everyone-needs-know https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/capsule-review/2021-1... * https://www.hks.harvard.edu/behind-the-book/erica-chenoweth-civil-resistance https://www.hks.harvard.edu/behind-the-book/erica-chenoweth-... * https://www.peacejusticestudies.org/chronicle/review-of-civil-resistance-what-everyone-needs-to-know/ https://www.peacejusticestudies.org/chronicle/review-of-civi... You almost double your chances of success by gaining sympathy versus 'acting out'. Do you think the race riots helped or hindered the civil rights movement? > Let me say as I've always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I'm still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapon available to oppressed people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve. That in a real sense it is impracticable for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots, and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. And continue to affirm that there is another way. * https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm If you want to actually achieve your goal(s) then non-violence and public opinion are important things to consider.