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[flagged]

nick_ 2y ago
Sorry are you trying to imply that the way various levels of US governments responded to recent left-wing protests has some conspiratorial parallel to the way the Canadian federal government responded to a right wing protest? The city of Ottawa's law enforcement officers were ordered to remove the protesters weeks before the federal government stepped in. The cops basically just didn't do their job. The emergency act was not invoked lightly.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  Who said anything about the US government? Left wing protestors get plenty of leeway in Canada but right wing protestors get branded terrorists for being loud. Oh but it "wasn't done lightly", whatever that's meant to mean, so obviously it's kosher.
  - nick_ 2y ago
    Oh I see. You're crazy.
    - dang 2y ago
      Posting like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are, so please don't do it on HN. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. The other commenter was breaking the site guidelines too, but in a different way, and I've responded to them also.
  - squigz 2y ago
    To what "leftist' protests are you referring, exactly?
- freeone3000 2y ago
  Perhaps the emergency act should have been invoked against the police.
sbarre 2y ago
Can you cite an example of where Canadian protests by "lefties" took over a major public road for weeks on end, and disrupted the lives of thousands of citizens, harassing them, depriving them of sleep, preventing their ability to get to/from their homes and businesses? I can tell you're already very convinced of who was right and wrong in this and you're trying to make this a left vs right thing, but there are limits to how many problems you can cause when you protest - no matter the cause - before civil society (via it's police force and/or government) says "ok, that's enough". Either that, or civil society sides with you, and then major change happens. And I guess no one wanted to side with the COVID-denying racists.
- belorn 2y ago
  > before civil society (via it's police force and/or government) says "ok, that's enough". Can you elaborate why it is "and/or government". Why is it acceptable that the government by-pass the normal legal system in dealing with protestors?
  - sbarre 2y ago
    > Why is it acceptable that the government by-pass the normal legal system in dealing with protestors? I'm not going to debate whether it was legal or not with you because (I'm assuming) neither of us are lawyers. I'll say that I don't particularly agree with the bank account shenanigans they pulled, but they only did that because the Ottawa police force completely failed to do their job in dealing with the blockade. I definitely don't like the precedent that was set, but having seen the blockade first hand (it was not a "peaceful protest", it was an aggressive encampment that was regularly threatening to passerbys and locals) and the impact it had on the area - my parents live nearby - they had to do something. I support the rights of citizens to protest but as I said, there's a limit.
    - belorn 2y ago
      The legality of the event is know. It was illegal, as deemed by a court of law. The question I was after is if the concept is ever moral or reasonable to deal with protestors with methods outside the legal system. Common methods are the military, but also martial law, suspending bank accounts (without a court decision), and other methods. Current in Sweden we had recent several demonstrations that lead to riots, and historically we had major ones including one that lead to several demonstrators getting shot. Every single time, researchers and government investigations has found that using anything other than the regular legal system is counter productive, and in some cases very deadly. If the police don't do their job you get more police from other regions. In a event just a few months ago, they even got police from nearby countries to help (despite massive demonstrations and influx of tourists, crime went significant down during that period). In general, the problem of police not doing their job seems to stem from when they are afraid. Either because of being extremely outnumbered, or in combination with poor instruction (with can lead to being afraid of doing mistakes in a political hot situation). Both are problems that can be solved by politicians without going outside the framework of the legal system.
CamperBob2 2y ago
Sleep deprivation is torture under the Geneva Convention. It's rightfully considered a war crime. You don't get to do that to other people. Not in my idea of a civil society.
- lupusreal 2y ago
  [flagged]
- gruez 2y ago
  Get a grip. Honking is honking. Comparing it to "war crimes" like killing civilians makes little sense and is disingenuous[1]. [1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-noncentral-fallacy-the-worst-argument-in-the-world https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-noncen...
  - CamperBob2 2y ago
    Translation: "I don't live anywhere near the affected area, so I didn't experience it. If I had, I could have just left town for a while and waited for the whole thing to blow over. I don't see the problem."
    - gruez 2y ago
      It's possible to be against the protesters and/or think that they're unacceptably annoying, without trying to compare your plight to innocent civilians who were killed/raped by enemy soldiers.
      - CamperBob2 2y ago
        Exactly. There's a force continuum at play. Truckers take over the city and make life a living hell for thousands of innocent residents? Lock their bank accounts and starve them out, and (ideally) prosecute the perpetrators alongside anyone who donated to them. Soldiers raping and killing civilians? Blow them to kingdom come if possible (it's a war, after all). Otherwise, identify them, convene a tribunal after the war, and hang those found guilty. FA, FO.
dang 2y ago
Can you please not post in the flamewar and/or ideological battle style to HN? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." and this one: "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity."

[flagged]

Sorry are you trying to imply that the way various levels of US governments responded to recent left-wing protests has some conspiratorial parallel to the way the Canadian federal government responded to a right wing protest? The city of Ottawa's law enforcement officers were ordered to remove the protesters weeks before the federal government stepped in. The cops basically just didn't do their job. The emergency act was not invoked lightly.

lupusreal 2y ago
Who said anything about the US government? Left wing protestors get plenty of leeway in Canada but right wing protestors get branded terrorists for being loud. Oh but it "wasn't done lightly", whatever that's meant to mean, so obviously it's kosher.
- nick_ 2y ago
  Oh I see. You're crazy.
  - dang 2y ago
    Posting like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are, so please don't do it on HN. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. The other commenter was breaking the site guidelines too, but in a different way, and I've responded to them also.
- squigz 2y ago
  To what "leftist' protests are you referring, exactly?
freeone3000 2y ago
Perhaps the emergency act should have been invoked against the police.

sbarre 2y ago

Can you cite an example of where Canadian protests by "lefties" took over a major public road for weeks on end, and disrupted the lives of thousands of citizens, harassing them, depriving them of sleep, preventing their ability to get to/from their homes and businesses? I can tell you're already very convinced of who was right and wrong in this and you're trying to make this a left vs right thing, but there are limits to how many problems you can cause when you protest - no matter the cause - before civil society (via it's police force and/or government) says "ok, that's enough". Either that, or civil society sides with you, and then major change happens. And I guess no one wanted to side with the COVID-denying racists.

belorn 2y ago
> before civil society (via it's police force and/or government) says "ok, that's enough". Can you elaborate why it is "and/or government". Why is it acceptable that the government by-pass the normal legal system in dealing with protestors?
- sbarre 2y ago
  > Why is it acceptable that the government by-pass the normal legal system in dealing with protestors? I'm not going to debate whether it was legal or not with you because (I'm assuming) neither of us are lawyers. I'll say that I don't particularly agree with the bank account shenanigans they pulled, but they only did that because the Ottawa police force completely failed to do their job in dealing with the blockade. I definitely don't like the precedent that was set, but having seen the blockade first hand (it was not a "peaceful protest", it was an aggressive encampment that was regularly threatening to passerbys and locals) and the impact it had on the area - my parents live nearby - they had to do something. I support the rights of citizens to protest but as I said, there's a limit.
  - belorn 2y ago
    The legality of the event is know. It was illegal, as deemed by a court of law. The question I was after is if the concept is ever moral or reasonable to deal with protestors with methods outside the legal system. Common methods are the military, but also martial law, suspending bank accounts (without a court decision), and other methods. Current in Sweden we had recent several demonstrations that lead to riots, and historically we had major ones including one that lead to several demonstrators getting shot. Every single time, researchers and government investigations has found that using anything other than the regular legal system is counter productive, and in some cases very deadly. If the police don't do their job you get more police from other regions. In a event just a few months ago, they even got police from nearby countries to help (despite massive demonstrations and influx of tourists, crime went significant down during that period). In general, the problem of police not doing their job seems to stem from when they are afraid. Either because of being extremely outnumbered, or in combination with poor instruction (with can lead to being afraid of doing mistakes in a political hot situation). Both are problems that can be solved by politicians without going outside the framework of the legal system.

CamperBob2 2y ago

Sleep deprivation is torture under the Geneva Convention. It's rightfully considered a war crime. You don't get to do that to other people. Not in my idea of a civil society.

lupusreal 2y ago
[flagged]
gruez 2y ago
Get a grip. Honking is honking. Comparing it to "war crimes" like killing civilians makes little sense and is disingenuous[1]. [1] https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-noncentral-fallacy-the-worst-argument-in-the-world https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/yCWPkLi8wJvewPbEp/the-noncen...
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  Translation: "I don't live anywhere near the affected area, so I didn't experience it. If I had, I could have just left town for a while and waited for the whole thing to blow over. I don't see the problem."
  - gruez 2y ago
    It's possible to be against the protesters and/or think that they're unacceptably annoying, without trying to compare your plight to innocent civilians who were killed/raped by enemy soldiers.
    - CamperBob2 2y ago
      Exactly. There's a force continuum at play. Truckers take over the city and make life a living hell for thousands of innocent residents? Lock their bank accounts and starve them out, and (ideally) prosecute the perpetrators alongside anyone who donated to them. Soldiers raping and killing civilians? Blow them to kingdom come if possible (it's a war, after all). Otherwise, identify them, convene a tribunal after the war, and hang those found guilty. FA, FO.

dang 2y ago

Can you please not post in the flamewar and/or ideological battle style to HN? It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Note this one: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." and this one: "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity."