4 ms·

You are confusing two things. Of course software runs in the real world from a substrate level. But from a systems perspective it just runs on a CPU, because

You are confusing two things. Of course software runs in the real world from a substrate level. But from a systems perspective it just runs on a CPU, because it operates by an assembly language that the CPU provides and you don’t need to know if the CPU is transistors, vacuum tubes, optical switches to understand the software operations. Likewise, you don’t need to know where the CPU is. What kind of system is producing its energy, etc. So there is a different level of operation between the physical substrate (or many alternative substrates) and the software. This is very obvious in computer games. The game provides an environment that is independent of what kind of computer you are running it on (given enough speed to be indistinguishable). Likewise, the Internet has rules that are implemented with physical things, it independent of the exact physical things. Who made your router? Most of the time the answer is “who cares?” as long as it correctly follows the networking rules of a router.

carapace 2y ago
> You are confusing two things. I doubt it. The essence of the question is the definition of "you" in your sentences. Who or what is "you"? (In fact that question is the short wide path to enlightenment, if "you" are into that sort of thing. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry It's metaphysical dynamite.) If you don't nail down that fundamental ground (who or what are you?) then there's no point talking about it. What is the "you" that has "a systems perspective"? What is the "you" that is going to live in the imaginary computer universe you are postulating? Because it sounds like you think you are imaginary. > Likewise, you don’t need to know where the CPU is. But it still is in space? It still exists? It's not imaginary? > The game provides an environment that is independent of what kind of computer you are running it on (given enough speed to be indistinguishable). The computer still has to have a monitor? A controller with switches and buttons? > the Internet [is] independent of the exact physical things. No my friend it is exactly those physical things and nothing else. There is no "the Internet" there is only physical things and subjective awareness. As far as we know "subjective awareness" whatever it is only occurs in brains, physical brains. You are saying that "subjective awareness" can exist (whatever "exist" means) without any hardware at all. I don't think you (or anyone else) has any evidence that that's true.
- skirmish 2y ago
  > No my friend it is exactly those physical things and nothing else. There is no "the Internet" there is only physical things and subjective awareness. So if an AI model is controlling a character that walks around and interacts with human-controlled characters on a Minecraft server, according to you none of those exist, it is all just wires and electric currents? Then by the same logic, "you" also don't exist, it is all just neurons activating and making your muscles move.
  - carapace 2y ago
    > it is all just neurons activating and making your muscles move. > ...and subjective awareness.
    - skirmish 2y ago
      The AI also claims subjective awareness when you chat with its avatar in the Minecraft world. Now what?
      - carapace 2y ago
        If I write "I am alive" on a piece of paper does that make it a living being? If I carve Aleph on the brow of the Golum does it become a man? How big does the pile of switches have to be before it changes from "what" to "who"? Look the point I'm making is that before one can speak meaningfully of uploading consciousness into the Internet one has to specify one's metaphysics. I have my own beliefs, and I'd love to yammer on about them if asked (fair warning!) but that's beside the point. Without figuring out what "you" is it's meaningless to talk about "you" living in "the Internet".
        skirmish 2y ago
        Seems that nobody will ever satisfy your metaphysical expectations. I am content with the old-fashioned Turing test: if my interlocutor can communicate reasonably intelligently, I am happy to treat him/her/it as an intelligent being.

carapace 2y ago

> You are confusing two things. I doubt it. The essence of the question is the definition of "you" in your sentences. Who or what is "you"? (In fact that question is the short wide path to enlightenment, if "you" are into that sort of thing. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry It's metaphysical dynamite.) If you don't nail down that fundamental ground (who or what are you?) then there's no point talking about it. What is the "you" that has "a systems perspective"? What is the "you" that is going to live in the imaginary computer universe you are postulating? Because it sounds like you think you are imaginary. > Likewise, you don’t need to know where the CPU is. But it still is in space? It still exists? It's not imaginary? > The game provides an environment that is independent of what kind of computer you are running it on (given enough speed to be indistinguishable). The computer still has to have a monitor? A controller with switches and buttons? > the Internet [is] independent of the exact physical things. No my friend it is exactly those physical things and nothing else. There is no "the Internet" there is only physical things and subjective awareness. As far as we know "subjective awareness" whatever it is only occurs in brains, physical brains. You are saying that "subjective awareness" can exist (whatever "exist" means) without any hardware at all. I don't think you (or anyone else) has any evidence that that's true.

skirmish 2y ago
> No my friend it is exactly those physical things and nothing else. There is no "the Internet" there is only physical things and subjective awareness. So if an AI model is controlling a character that walks around and interacts with human-controlled characters on a Minecraft server, according to you none of those exist, it is all just wires and electric currents? Then by the same logic, "you" also don't exist, it is all just neurons activating and making your muscles move.
- carapace 2y ago
  > it is all just neurons activating and making your muscles move. > ...and subjective awareness.
  - skirmish 2y ago
    The AI also claims subjective awareness when you chat with its avatar in the Minecraft world. Now what?
    - carapace 2y ago
      If I write "I am alive" on a piece of paper does that make it a living being? If I carve Aleph on the brow of the Golum does it become a man? How big does the pile of switches have to be before it changes from "what" to "who"? Look the point I'm making is that before one can speak meaningfully of uploading consciousness into the Internet one has to specify one's metaphysics. I have my own beliefs, and I'd love to yammer on about them if asked (fair warning!) but that's beside the point. Without figuring out what "you" is it's meaningless to talk about "you" living in "the Internet".
      - skirmish 2y ago
        Seems that nobody will ever satisfy your metaphysical expectations. I am content with the old-fashioned Turing test: if my interlocutor can communicate reasonably intelligently, I am happy to treat him/her/it as an intelligent being.