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I thought it was understood that vocal language grew out of sign language used by hominid hunting groups? It seems to me that "action selection and the sequenc

I thought it was understood that vocal language grew out of sign language used by hominid hunting groups? It seems to me that "action selection and the sequence of actions" reaches it's zenith in pre-linguistic animals in hunting. It would be the most complex sequence of actions any animal attempts? (Building a nest, say, is complicated but static: the nest materials are not actively attempting to avoid being made into nests. Mating behaviors are instinctive and stereotypical. Only hunting is open ended?)

Bluestein 2y ago
> Only hunting is open ended? (Interesting point, also hunting as an "adversarial" - BTW of "adversarial" network training - activity? Tangentially, I'd add shelter and foraging and, basically the "struggle" against the elements (entropy, decay, death ...)
- carapace 2y ago
  All those things are answered well enough by evolved programs ("instinct"), it's only hunting (and later war) where you get, yeah, adversarial training. Hunting in groups requires intelligence and communication to coordinate actions over time and space. With humans the idea is that we started with hand gestures and then added vocalizations. (I have no idea where I got that, nor how mainstream it is with anthropologists or anything. I hope I'm not just repeating "just so" stories...)
Nevermark 2y ago
Mating choices and acceptance are both a negotiation and a competition. So mating strategies are open ended in complexity as different mating roles each adapt to adaptions in the other role, and in competitors with the same role. The plethora of absolutely odd mating practices in the natural world demonstrates that. Almost any aspect of an animal and its behaviors can be co-opted into being a mating factor, at which point selection takes that characteristic to crazy places completely unrelated to its original form and function.
- carapace 2y ago
  You're talking about evolution, I'm talking about thought. (Bateson said they were the same thing, just one faster than the other, but that's a bit heavy for a sunny Sunday morning.)
  - Bluestein 2y ago
    > Bateson said they were the same thing Sounds interesting.-
    - carapace 2y ago
      Gregory Bateson I think it was either in "Steps to Ecology of Mind" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steps_to_an_Ecology_of_Mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steps_to_an_Ecology_of_Mind or "Mind and Nature: a Necessary Unity" or both.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]

Bluestein 2y ago

> Only hunting is open ended? (Interesting point, also hunting as an "adversarial" - BTW of "adversarial" network training - activity? Tangentially, I'd add shelter and foraging and, basically the "struggle" against the elements (entropy, decay, death ...)

carapace 2y ago
All those things are answered well enough by evolved programs ("instinct"), it's only hunting (and later war) where you get, yeah, adversarial training. Hunting in groups requires intelligence and communication to coordinate actions over time and space. With humans the idea is that we started with hand gestures and then added vocalizations. (I have no idea where I got that, nor how mainstream it is with anthropologists or anything. I hope I'm not just repeating "just so" stories...)

Nevermark 2y ago

Mating choices and acceptance are both a negotiation and a competition. So mating strategies are open ended in complexity as different mating roles each adapt to adaptions in the other role, and in competitors with the same role. The plethora of absolutely odd mating practices in the natural world demonstrates that. Almost any aspect of an animal and its behaviors can be co-opted into being a mating factor, at which point selection takes that characteristic to crazy places completely unrelated to its original form and function.

carapace 2y ago
You're talking about evolution, I'm talking about thought. (Bateson said they were the same thing, just one faster than the other, but that's a bit heavy for a sunny Sunday morning.)
- Bluestein 2y ago
  > Bateson said they were the same thing Sounds interesting.-
  - carapace 2y ago
    Gregory Bateson I think it was either in "Steps to Ecology of Mind" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steps_to_an_Ecology_of_Mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steps_to_an_Ecology_of_Mind or "Mind and Nature: a Necessary Unity" or both.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]