5 ms·

How exactly is the internet not interacting with photons and electrons in the physical world?

by smokel 2y ago

jstanley 2y ago
In the same way that a sandboxed HTML page is "not executing machine code on the CPU". Of course that's how everything works if you drill down deep enough, but if your direct connection is to the internet, rather than to your arms and legs, I think it's fair to say that you exist on the internet rather than in the physical world. I think the term is "reductionist". It is reductionist to say that because the internet exists in the physical world, existing on the internet is no different from existing in the physical world.
- carapace 2y ago
  There is no "the Internet". There are computers, and wires, and silicon and electrons and photons, and there are cells and nerves and brains, but there is no "the Internet" in the real world. > your direct connection is to the internet You've still got a brain? A brain in a jar wired to a computer network is still in the physical world. You have to figure out your metaphysics before you can talk about this sort of thing. What are you? (I would say that you are subjective awareness itself, but that's useless from the POV (no joke intended) of someone trying to build a machine that can be a conscious being, or trying to transcend physical reality.)
  - mistermann 2y ago
    > There is no "the Internet". > there is no "the Internet" in the real world. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37754535 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37754535 > You have to figure out your metaphysics before you can talk about this sort of thing. This is a very good point, but easier said than done. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25415441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25415441
  - Nevermark 2y ago
    You are confusing two things. Of course software runs in the real world from a substrate level. But from a systems perspective it just runs on a CPU, because it operates by an assembly language that the CPU provides and you don’t need to know if the CPU is transistors, vacuum tubes, optical switches to understand the software operations. Likewise, you don’t need to know where the CPU is. What kind of system is producing its energy, etc. So there is a different level of operation between the physical substrate (or many alternative substrates) and the software. This is very obvious in computer games. The game provides an environment that is independent of what kind of computer you are running it on (given enough speed to be indistinguishable). Likewise, the Internet has rules that are implemented with physical things, it independent of the exact physical things. Who made your router? Most of the time the answer is “who cares?” as long as it correctly follows the networking rules of a router.
    - carapace 2y ago
      > You are confusing two things. I doubt it. The essence of the question is the definition of "you" in your sentences. Who or what is "you"? (In fact that question is the short wide path to enlightenment, if "you" are into that sort of thing. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry It's metaphysical dynamite.) If you don't nail down that fundamental ground (who or what are you?) then there's no point talking about it. What is the "you" that has "a systems perspective"? What is the "you" that is going to live in the imaginary computer universe you are postulating? Because it sounds like you think you are imaginary. > Likewise, you don’t need to know where the CPU is. But it still is in space? It still exists? It's not imaginary? > The game provides an environment that is independent of what kind of computer you are running it on (given enough speed to be indistinguishable). The computer still has to have a monitor? A controller with switches and buttons? > the Internet [is] independent of the exact physical things. No my friend it is exactly those physical things and nothing else. There is no "the Internet" there is only physical things and subjective awareness. As far as we know "subjective awareness" whatever it is only occurs in brains, physical brains. You are saying that "subjective awareness" can exist (whatever "exist" means) without any hardware at all. I don't think you (or anyone else) has any evidence that that's true.
cscurmudgeon 2y ago
Well said. The internal/external/physical is just a human abstraction.

How exactly is the internet not interacting with photons and electrons in the physical world?

by smokel 2y ago

How exactly is the internet not interacting with photons and electrons in the physical world?

In the same way that a sandboxed HTML page is "not executing machine code on the CPU". Of course that's how everything works if you drill down deep enough, but if your direct connection is to the internet, rather than to your arms and legs, I think it's fair to say that you exist on the internet rather than in the physical world. I think the term is "reductionist". It is reductionist to say that because the internet exists in the physical world, existing on the internet is no different from existing in the physical world.

carapace 2y ago
There is no "the Internet". There are computers, and wires, and silicon and electrons and photons, and there are cells and nerves and brains, but there is no "the Internet" in the real world. > your direct connection is to the internet You've still got a brain? A brain in a jar wired to a computer network is still in the physical world. You have to figure out your metaphysics before you can talk about this sort of thing. What are you? (I would say that you are subjective awareness itself, but that's useless from the POV (no joke intended) of someone trying to build a machine that can be a conscious being, or trying to transcend physical reality.)
- mistermann 2y ago
  > There is no "the Internet". > there is no "the Internet" in the real world. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37754535 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37754535 > You have to figure out your metaphysics before you can talk about this sort of thing. This is a very good point, but easier said than done. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25415441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25415441
- Nevermark 2y ago
  You are confusing two things. Of course software runs in the real world from a substrate level. But from a systems perspective it just runs on a CPU, because it operates by an assembly language that the CPU provides and you don’t need to know if the CPU is transistors, vacuum tubes, optical switches to understand the software operations. Likewise, you don’t need to know where the CPU is. What kind of system is producing its energy, etc. So there is a different level of operation between the physical substrate (or many alternative substrates) and the software. This is very obvious in computer games. The game provides an environment that is independent of what kind of computer you are running it on (given enough speed to be indistinguishable). Likewise, the Internet has rules that are implemented with physical things, it independent of the exact physical things. Who made your router? Most of the time the answer is “who cares?” as long as it correctly follows the networking rules of a router.
  - carapace 2y ago
    > You are confusing two things. I doubt it. The essence of the question is the definition of "you" in your sentences. Who or what is "you"? (In fact that question is the short wide path to enlightenment, if "you" are into that sort of thing. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enquiry It's metaphysical dynamite.) If you don't nail down that fundamental ground (who or what are you?) then there's no point talking about it. What is the "you" that has "a systems perspective"? What is the "you" that is going to live in the imaginary computer universe you are postulating? Because it sounds like you think you are imaginary. > Likewise, you don’t need to know where the CPU is. But it still is in space? It still exists? It's not imaginary? > The game provides an environment that is independent of what kind of computer you are running it on (given enough speed to be indistinguishable). The computer still has to have a monitor? A controller with switches and buttons? > the Internet [is] independent of the exact physical things. No my friend it is exactly those physical things and nothing else. There is no "the Internet" there is only physical things and subjective awareness. As far as we know "subjective awareness" whatever it is only occurs in brains, physical brains. You are saying that "subjective awareness" can exist (whatever "exist" means) without any hardware at all. I don't think you (or anyone else) has any evidence that that's true.

cscurmudgeon 2y ago

Well said. The internal/external/physical is just a human abstraction.