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Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but what you’re describing sounds like what I thought the case was before this ruling. The courts were deciding on the reasonablenes

by bumby 2y ago

Maybe I’m misunderstanding, but what you’re describing sounds like what I thought the case was before this ruling. The courts were deciding on the reasonableness of the agency interpretation. Now it sounds like the court is interpreting directly. To do the latter effectively, I still maintain you need a solid expert understanding of the domain. It sounds like we disagree on who is better equipped to make the kinds of interpretations necessary for effective policy. Like I said in another post, I don’t think we can pretend law can be abstracted and cleaved from the systems it regulates. The court admits they don’t have expertise in those systems. That makes me feel they are ill-equipped for the types of interpretations.

mike_hearn 2y ago
What you had understood and what he's describing is the situation pre-1984 and now post this judgement. I think a lot of the reason this thread has blown up is that the Chevron doctrine was really very strange and not at all how you'd expect the US legal system to have been working. It doesn't line up with any standard teaching of civics, for instance. The Supreme Court clearly felt the same way and has now instructed courts to go back to doing what everyone thought they were doing already.
- bumby 2y ago
  I don’t know that I agree. It’s exactly the understanding I was given from an engineering law course, for example. Prior to this ruling, the regulatory agencies were given latitude to interpret ambiguous law as long as they were determined reasonable by the court. It’s also what I think most people understand, given the way people rail against agencies rather than statutes. To be clear, I think there is a distinction between declaring if a law is constitutional and resolving ambiguities for non-constitutional, domain specific issues. I think the court is eminently qualified in one area, but much less so (by their own admission) in the other. I think those are two different aspects that often get conflated.
Gormo 2y ago
Yes, you are misunderstanding. Chevron obligated the courts to defer to agencies' own internal interpretation of statute law whenever any ambiguity arose as to what the law said. Reversing Chevron has restored that function to the judiciary, where it belongs.
- bumby 2y ago
  I’m not misunderstanding then. Chevron still deferred interpreting ambiguity to the agency, but the courts could still check that based on a reasonableness standard. Now the court gets both aspects. Our difference is that I think that is a less good outcome because I believe domain expertise is necessary to effectively clear up ambiguity and the court admits they do not have that kind of domain expertise. I think the court should reserve power for constitutionality (their domain expertise) and leave resolving the ambiguity outside that to the regulatory experts of those respective domains.
  - Gormo 2y ago
    > I’m not misunderstanding then. Chevron still deferred interpreting ambiguity to the agency, but the courts could still check that based on a reasonableness standard. No, you are definitely misunderstanding. Chevron delegated a core duty of the judiciary to executive branch officials with no expertise in that field. The "reasonableness" standard you was a limited and constrained version of reasonableness standards devised and applied by courts in normal statutory interpretation, and deprived the courts of the power to fully exercise their duty. > Now the court gets both aspects. No, there is only one aspect here. > Our difference is that I think that is a less good outcome because I believe domain expertise is necessary to effectively clear up ambiguity and the court admits they do not have that kind of domain expertise. The domain expertise of the regulators in the field of regulation is irrelevant here, because the cases that go before the court are not about what measures are likely to be effective in fulfilling the agency's mandate, it's about what measures are legally permissible. > I think the court should reserve power for constitutionality (their domain expertise) and leave resolving the ambiguity outside that to the regulatory experts of those respective domains. The only domain at question here is the domain of interpreting the law, and the relevant experts in that are the judiciary themselves. You are conflating together completely distinct matters.

by bumby 2y ago

mike_hearn 2y ago

What you had understood and what he's describing is the situation pre-1984 and now post this judgement. I think a lot of the reason this thread has blown up is that the Chevron doctrine was really very strange and not at all how you'd expect the US legal system to have been working. It doesn't line up with any standard teaching of civics, for instance. The Supreme Court clearly felt the same way and has now instructed courts to go back to doing what everyone thought they were doing already.

bumby 2y ago
I don’t know that I agree. It’s exactly the understanding I was given from an engineering law course, for example. Prior to this ruling, the regulatory agencies were given latitude to interpret ambiguous law as long as they were determined reasonable by the court. It’s also what I think most people understand, given the way people rail against agencies rather than statutes. To be clear, I think there is a distinction between declaring if a law is constitutional and resolving ambiguities for non-constitutional, domain specific issues. I think the court is eminently qualified in one area, but much less so (by their own admission) in the other. I think those are two different aspects that often get conflated.

Gormo 2y ago

Yes, you are misunderstanding. Chevron obligated the courts to defer to agencies' own internal interpretation of statute law whenever any ambiguity arose as to what the law said. Reversing Chevron has restored that function to the judiciary, where it belongs.

bumby 2y ago
I’m not misunderstanding then. Chevron still deferred interpreting ambiguity to the agency, but the courts could still check that based on a reasonableness standard. Now the court gets both aspects. Our difference is that I think that is a less good outcome because I believe domain expertise is necessary to effectively clear up ambiguity and the court admits they do not have that kind of domain expertise. I think the court should reserve power for constitutionality (their domain expertise) and leave resolving the ambiguity outside that to the regulatory experts of those respective domains.
- Gormo 2y ago
  > I’m not misunderstanding then. Chevron still deferred interpreting ambiguity to the agency, but the courts could still check that based on a reasonableness standard. No, you are definitely misunderstanding. Chevron delegated a core duty of the judiciary to executive branch officials with no expertise in that field. The "reasonableness" standard you was a limited and constrained version of reasonableness standards devised and applied by courts in normal statutory interpretation, and deprived the courts of the power to fully exercise their duty. > Now the court gets both aspects. No, there is only one aspect here. > Our difference is that I think that is a less good outcome because I believe domain expertise is necessary to effectively clear up ambiguity and the court admits they do not have that kind of domain expertise. The domain expertise of the regulators in the field of regulation is irrelevant here, because the cases that go before the court are not about what measures are likely to be effective in fulfilling the agency's mandate, it's about what measures are legally permissible. > I think the court should reserve power for constitutionality (their domain expertise) and leave resolving the ambiguity outside that to the regulatory experts of those respective domains. The only domain at question here is the domain of interpreting the law, and the relevant experts in that are the judiciary themselves. You are conflating together completely distinct matters.