3 ms·

> Energy = mass * distance. The further people live away, from each other, the more energy is consumed, for doing everything That only holds if things stay jus

> Energy = mass * distance. The further people live away, from each other, the more energy is consumed, for doing everything That only holds if things stay just as centralized as they are today. If people live further from each other they have more potential for producing their own goods. That also means everyone around then has that potential as well. For example, living in a dense area means any lumber you buy was shipped in, and likely even crossed national borders. Living in a less populated area can mean access to lumber from a local lumber yard that processes trees grown locally. I think the real challenge we have today is that we are stuck in the middle, our society is neither designed for dense populations or low density populations. There's nothing that I've seen that can definitively show that dense populations will always work better than less dense, more independent populations. Either can work well and either can be much better utilized than what we have today. What I really take issue with is a central authority forcing one approach on us. Because we can't show why one path has to be the best, and because we don't know what we don't know, the decision should never be made at all by those in charge. The beauty of a federal model is to allow smaller regions to go their own way and try different approaches. I wouldn't balk at all if Los Angeles wanted to try a land value tax, let's see what happens. I personally don't think it will work well and I think there isn't a good answer for how to appropriately value the land, but I also don't live there and as long as my federal tax dollars aren't given to LA I have no dog in that fight.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
> If people live further from each other they have more potential for producing their own goods. I think this is extremely unlikely because it is so much cheaper to mass manufacture and ship things across literally half the entire world than to make them locally. Energy/resource usage is not dominated by low frequency lumber trips, it is the every day push and pull of the mass of people, water, sewage, garbage, food, etc. Without reverting to 1400s lifestyle where you only consume stuff made within a few hundred miles of you, I don’t think there is any way a modern populace consumed less by using more space.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  So you would push for centralization and higher density not because its the only good solution, but because you think people wouldn't want the alternative, right? I don't see anything wrong with your guess that people wouldn't want it, but should that option be effectively removed from us through programs like a tax that incentivizes high density? There's a sawmill I get lumber from about 10 minutes from my house. He gets all his logs from arborists within a few hours of here. They all give him the logs for free because the alternative is either burning them or having to pay by the truckload to take them to the dump. I don't live in the 1400s but I do very much appreciate the ability to get lumber that was milled locally and would otherwise have just been dropped in a hole with a bunch of garbage.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    I don’t see why your lumber mill has to be affected? Land value tax proposals would mostly just change things in urban areas, where land is scarce and valuable. There are no lumber mills there, just rich people who own the land from either having inherited it or an REIT owning it, waiting for it to appreciate. I’m assuming you live in a rural area, which have (relatively) low land values. It’s the strip mall suburbs that are highly inefficiently developed due to no penalty on the inefficiency (caused by low density).
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      I wasn't trying to say my lumber mill would be affected by a land tax, though presumably they would if a land tax was imposed here and a different business could theoretically extract more value from that land. I raised a local mill as an example of how a less dense area can also lead to higher efficiency and lower resource use. I was responding to the idea that we need a land value tax to push us towards higher density living because that's the most efficient. Its only efficient if we have centralized infrastructure that will always have to be shipped across the country or around the globe to get basic goods to people. I used my local mill as an example of how lower density can lead to resource efficiency that will simply never be beat no matter how efficient a centralized industry and shipping is. Does it scale? Well I have no idea. Do people want the life in a less dense area? Again, no idea and I think most people living in a dense area don't really know what that life would look like to answer that question. I have plenty of uncertainties for either approach, what I don't want is for a central planner to push one path on us when its not clear the right way to go

lotsofpulp 2y ago

> If people live further from each other they have more potential for producing their own goods. I think this is extremely unlikely because it is so much cheaper to mass manufacture and ship things across literally half the entire world than to make them locally. Energy/resource usage is not dominated by low frequency lumber trips, it is the every day push and pull of the mass of people, water, sewage, garbage, food, etc. Without reverting to 1400s lifestyle where you only consume stuff made within a few hundred miles of you, I don’t think there is any way a modern populace consumed less by using more space.

_heimdall 2y ago
So you would push for centralization and higher density not because its the only good solution, but because you think people wouldn't want the alternative, right? I don't see anything wrong with your guess that people wouldn't want it, but should that option be effectively removed from us through programs like a tax that incentivizes high density? There's a sawmill I get lumber from about 10 minutes from my house. He gets all his logs from arborists within a few hours of here. They all give him the logs for free because the alternative is either burning them or having to pay by the truckload to take them to the dump. I don't live in the 1400s but I do very much appreciate the ability to get lumber that was milled locally and would otherwise have just been dropped in a hole with a bunch of garbage.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  I don’t see why your lumber mill has to be affected? Land value tax proposals would mostly just change things in urban areas, where land is scarce and valuable. There are no lumber mills there, just rich people who own the land from either having inherited it or an REIT owning it, waiting for it to appreciate. I’m assuming you live in a rural area, which have (relatively) low land values. It’s the strip mall suburbs that are highly inefficiently developed due to no penalty on the inefficiency (caused by low density).
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I wasn't trying to say my lumber mill would be affected by a land tax, though presumably they would if a land tax was imposed here and a different business could theoretically extract more value from that land. I raised a local mill as an example of how a less dense area can also lead to higher efficiency and lower resource use. I was responding to the idea that we need a land value tax to push us towards higher density living because that's the most efficient. Its only efficient if we have centralized infrastructure that will always have to be shipped across the country or around the globe to get basic goods to people. I used my local mill as an example of how lower density can lead to resource efficiency that will simply never be beat no matter how efficient a centralized industry and shipping is. Does it scale? Well I have no idea. Do people want the life in a less dense area? Again, no idea and I think most people living in a dense area don't really know what that life would look like to answer that question. I have plenty of uncertainties for either approach, what I don't want is for a central planner to push one path on us when its not clear the right way to go