7 ms·

I have a friend who is very into these types of games, having dedicated about 1200 sq ft of their home to them. The commercial ones are usually centered on spec

by bane 2y ago

I have a friend who is very into these types of games, having dedicated about 1200 sq ft of their home to them. The commercial ones are usually centered on specific historic battles, and often follow a sort of "script" where things happen at specific turns e.g. the introduction of new units or weather conditions, that sort of thing. They seemed interesting, and I came away with two main observations: 1 - A game can take a very very long time. Turns might even take days or weeks on particularly elaborate ones. Thus there is a major time commitment during which you must leave the game out and setup for an extended period of time. 2 - My first thought when encountering these was "why aren't they just using a computer?". But I quickly learned that the ability to spread out a map, that might be many square meters, and see everything happening on it at once, without having to slide a monitor's viewport around (or zoom in and out) has a number of massive advantages -- and (at the time I was looking at this) there's really no display technology today that can replicate this. I feel like both of these observations have changed significantly with the advent of cheap, high-resolution, networked AR/VR headsets. I don't think I'd want to wear one entirely for the length of time a game might take, but we're much closer now to having truly digital versions of this that eliminate many of the downsides.

MrMember 2y ago
>A game can take a very very long time. Turns might even take days or weeks on particularly elaborate ones. Thus there is a major time commitment during which you must leave the game out and setup for an extended period of time. The Campaign for North Africa is probably the most extreme example of this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Campaign_for_North_Africa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Campaign_for_North_Afric... A "proper" game requires 10 players and an estimated 1500 hours.
- the_af 2y ago
  I don't think anyone is on record as having completed a single game of Campaign for North Africa. Likely not even the author. Which I guess makes it a game only in the theoretical sense.
  - irrational 2y ago
    Well, there is the recording of Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory.
  - livrem 2y ago
    That topic has come up a few times on wargame forums and there are those that claim to have played it one or more times. You need a big table to leave it set up and play with a group that can get together regularly, but that is not different from running a RPG campaign. Today any group playing it is more likely to play it using (the open source tool) VASSAL (here is the free module to download to play CNA: https://vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:The_Campaign_for_North_Africa:_The_Desert_War_1940-43 https://vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:The_Campaign_for_North_...). I saw a thread on a wargame forum just a few weeks ago looking for players to start up a new game. Playing online probably makes it a bit more likely to be played (but also less fun than to gather around a huge table IRL?). (Aside: By tradition, an old "gentlemens agreement", between the wargaming community and wargame publishers, when playing a game online with VASSAL every player is expected to own a physical copy of the game. You are not supposed to download the CNA module to play it for free without owning the game. There is no DRM or other attempts to police who plays what, but as long as the system is not abused too much the publishers are happy and most keep allowing those tools to exist. It is a nice contrast to how copyright is handled elsewhere, including in more mainstream tools for playing online boardgames. I guess it is only possible in a small niche hobby like that, and possibly only because the tradition started last century before there was big money in selling digital versions of boardgames.)
    - michaelt 2y ago
      > You need a big table to leave it set up and play with a group that can get together regularly, but that is not different from running a RPG campaign. I think you might be under-estimating how long a 1500 hour game is. A person who works 8 hours a day works 2000 hours in the course of a year. And if the game's in-person, there's travel time - it's not like a computer game where you can do a 1-hour session every evening for 4 years. Even a the longest RPG adventures like "Dungeon of the mad mage" (famous for people getting bored without completing it) tend to be less than 500 hours.
- 9dev 2y ago
  The masochist in me wants to build a program to simulate the game and see how fast a computer can do it…
User23 2y ago
> But I quickly learned that the ability to spread out a map, that might be many square meters, and see everything happening on it at once, without having to slide a monitor's viewport around (or zoom in and out) has a number of massive advantages -- and (at the time I was looking at this) there's really no display technology today that can replicate this. This is why I’d love a wall size monitor.
- euroderf 2y ago
  There are systems for putting a wargame map on the wall and using magnets to attach counters.
- chaostheory 2y ago
  You can do the same for much cheaper with a VR headset. A popular use for them is to simulate a movie theater or giant computer monitors for flat gaming.
  - ekianjo 2y ago
    a VR headset is hardly a replacement for an actual monitor especially for long periods of time
    - Suppafly 2y ago
      >a VR headset is hardly a replacement for an actual monitor especially for long periods of time Except whenever a "is VR worth it?" post comes up here, half the comments are people claiming that's what they use them for.
      - the_af 2y ago
        I had a conversation with someone from work who uses VR to work exclusively (meaning, he doesn't use a normal monitor or keyboard for work) and it turns out his setup is really different from what I imagined. He has a high end VR device, not an Oculus (I forgot which though). His chair is weird and positioned weird. He uses a counterweight in his headset. And so on. Not for me, in other words.
defsectec 2y ago
I'm pretty sure that these days the more modern military wargames done by legitimate organizations, that aren't physical simulations (a.k.a. laser tag for grownups), do use computers and have integrations with full-size flight sims and data analysis tools. I play game called Command: Modern Operation^¹ which can barely be a called a game, but rather a military command simulation at the operational level masquerading as one for civilian mil-sim nerds such as myself to toy around with. There is a "Pro" version^² with all sorts of data-analysis and integration with other equipment/software that, according to their website, used by a surprisingly long list of military organizations. In practice, I have no idea how much it actually is used as I don't work in the defense industry. I'm sure there are other tools out there like this, but this is the only one I've used before. If you like these kind of things I highly recommend it. It's the kind of game that comes with a 400pg ebook if that's your kinda thing. Personally, it tickles my autism just right. [1]: https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=5002 https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=5002 [2]: https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=3822 https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=3822
- DocTomoe 2y ago
  You would be wrong about that - boardgames-like wargaming is used by militaries all over the world, including the US.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0okOrVaLCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0okOrVaLCA
  - defsectec 2y ago
    Oh, you are 100% correct and I'm just speculating. I didn't intend to imply that they only used computers these days, just that they are used sometimes. Though after looking over my comment once more, I see that it definitely reads that way. Thanks for correction and extra info! If you have any more, please share as I find this all fascinating.
- livrem 2y ago
  Played some Harpoon, the older series that Command: Modern Operations came from (long story: https://retroviator.com/harpoon/ https://retroviator.com/harpoon/). Then I got hooked on Rule the Waves recently. Matrix games publishes the latest game in that series as well (from last year): https://www.matrixgames.com/game/rule-the-waves-3 https://www.matrixgames.com/game/rule-the-waves-3 It is a game mostly about staring at a spreadsheet, showing all the ships in your (usually early 20th century) fleet and their most important data, plus the current budget for your navy. There is ship-design and fighting (2D) real-time battles as well, but mostly staring at a spreadsheet.
wrp 2y ago
Within the wargaming community, keeping these games non-computerized is a deliberate choice. The main intent of manual gaming is to maintain awareness of all the variables you are manipulating. Another benefit to manual gaming is the ability of non-programmers to easily tweak the system. A good exposition of the manual approach to wargaming is Philip Sabin's Simulating War: Studying Conflict through Simulation Games (2012).

by bane 2y ago

MrMember 2y ago

>A game can take a very very long time. Turns might even take days or weeks on particularly elaborate ones. Thus there is a major time commitment during which you must leave the game out and setup for an extended period of time. The Campaign for North Africa is probably the most extreme example of this. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Campaign_for_North_Africa https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Campaign_for_North_Afric... A "proper" game requires 10 players and an estimated 1500 hours.

the_af 2y ago
I don't think anyone is on record as having completed a single game of Campaign for North Africa. Likely not even the author. Which I guess makes it a game only in the theoretical sense.
- irrational 2y ago
  Well, there is the recording of Sheldon on the Big Bang Theory.
- livrem 2y ago
  That topic has come up a few times on wargame forums and there are those that claim to have played it one or more times. You need a big table to leave it set up and play with a group that can get together regularly, but that is not different from running a RPG campaign. Today any group playing it is more likely to play it using (the open source tool) VASSAL (here is the free module to download to play CNA: https://vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:The_Campaign_for_North_Africa:_The_Desert_War_1940-43 https://vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:The_Campaign_for_North_...). I saw a thread on a wargame forum just a few weeks ago looking for players to start up a new game. Playing online probably makes it a bit more likely to be played (but also less fun than to gather around a huge table IRL?). (Aside: By tradition, an old "gentlemens agreement", between the wargaming community and wargame publishers, when playing a game online with VASSAL every player is expected to own a physical copy of the game. You are not supposed to download the CNA module to play it for free without owning the game. There is no DRM or other attempts to police who plays what, but as long as the system is not abused too much the publishers are happy and most keep allowing those tools to exist. It is a nice contrast to how copyright is handled elsewhere, including in more mainstream tools for playing online boardgames. I guess it is only possible in a small niche hobby like that, and possibly only because the tradition started last century before there was big money in selling digital versions of boardgames.)
  - michaelt 2y ago
    > You need a big table to leave it set up and play with a group that can get together regularly, but that is not different from running a RPG campaign. I think you might be under-estimating how long a 1500 hour game is. A person who works 8 hours a day works 2000 hours in the course of a year. And if the game's in-person, there's travel time - it's not like a computer game where you can do a 1-hour session every evening for 4 years. Even a the longest RPG adventures like "Dungeon of the mad mage" (famous for people getting bored without completing it) tend to be less than 500 hours.
9dev 2y ago
The masochist in me wants to build a program to simulate the game and see how fast a computer can do it…

User23 2y ago

> But I quickly learned that the ability to spread out a map, that might be many square meters, and see everything happening on it at once, without having to slide a monitor's viewport around (or zoom in and out) has a number of massive advantages -- and (at the time I was looking at this) there's really no display technology today that can replicate this. This is why I’d love a wall size monitor.

euroderf 2y ago
There are systems for putting a wargame map on the wall and using magnets to attach counters.
chaostheory 2y ago
You can do the same for much cheaper with a VR headset. A popular use for them is to simulate a movie theater or giant computer monitors for flat gaming.
- ekianjo 2y ago
  a VR headset is hardly a replacement for an actual monitor especially for long periods of time
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    >a VR headset is hardly a replacement for an actual monitor especially for long periods of time Except whenever a "is VR worth it?" post comes up here, half the comments are people claiming that's what they use them for.
    - the_af 2y ago
      I had a conversation with someone from work who uses VR to work exclusively (meaning, he doesn't use a normal monitor or keyboard for work) and it turns out his setup is really different from what I imagined. He has a high end VR device, not an Oculus (I forgot which though). His chair is weird and positioned weird. He uses a counterweight in his headset. And so on. Not for me, in other words.

defsectec 2y ago

I'm pretty sure that these days the more modern military wargames done by legitimate organizations, that aren't physical simulations (a.k.a. laser tag for grownups), do use computers and have integrations with full-size flight sims and data analysis tools. I play game called Command: Modern Operation^¹ which can barely be a called a game, but rather a military command simulation at the operational level masquerading as one for civilian mil-sim nerds such as myself to toy around with. There is a "Pro" version^² with all sorts of data-analysis and integration with other equipment/software that, according to their website, used by a surprisingly long list of military organizations. In practice, I have no idea how much it actually is used as I don't work in the defense industry. I'm sure there are other tools out there like this, but this is the only one I've used before. If you like these kind of things I highly recommend it. It's the kind of game that comes with a 400pg ebook if that's your kinda thing. Personally, it tickles my autism just right. [1]: https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=5002 https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=5002 [2]: https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=3822 https://command.matrixgames.com/?page_id=3822

DocTomoe 2y ago
You would be wrong about that - boardgames-like wargaming is used by militaries all over the world, including the US.[1] [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0okOrVaLCA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0okOrVaLCA
- defsectec 2y ago
  Oh, you are 100% correct and I'm just speculating. I didn't intend to imply that they only used computers these days, just that they are used sometimes. Though after looking over my comment once more, I see that it definitely reads that way. Thanks for correction and extra info! If you have any more, please share as I find this all fascinating.
livrem 2y ago
Played some Harpoon, the older series that Command: Modern Operations came from (long story: https://retroviator.com/harpoon/ https://retroviator.com/harpoon/). Then I got hooked on Rule the Waves recently. Matrix games publishes the latest game in that series as well (from last year): https://www.matrixgames.com/game/rule-the-waves-3 https://www.matrixgames.com/game/rule-the-waves-3 It is a game mostly about staring at a spreadsheet, showing all the ships in your (usually early 20th century) fleet and their most important data, plus the current budget for your navy. There is ship-design and fighting (2D) real-time battles as well, but mostly staring at a spreadsheet.

wrp 2y ago

Within the wargaming community, keeping these games non-computerized is a deliberate choice. The main intent of manual gaming is to maintain awareness of all the variables you are manipulating. Another benefit to manual gaming is the ability of non-programmers to easily tweak the system. A good exposition of the manual approach to wargaming is Philip Sabin's Simulating War: Studying Conflict through Simulation Games (2012).