4 ms·

In an age of strong opinions, ambiguity, and internalized whataboutism, it's good, though disturbing, to periodically get reminded of what evil looks like and w

In an age of strong opinions, ambiguity, and internalized whataboutism, it's good, though disturbing, to periodically get reminded of what evil looks like and who the bad guys actually are.

therobots927 2y ago
Russia vs Ukraine? Yes it’s clear who the bad guy is in that situation (Russia). But there are plenty of countries allied with the US, and even the US itself sometimes, that commit atrocities like this. Guantanamo, for example, has inmates that are known by the government to be innocent who still haven’t been released. Probably because the government knows they would be swarmed by reporters trying to get full details on what was going on inside that torture chamber. Morality is besides the point. All that matters is your passport. Mine happens to be American. Doesn’t mean that I have to pretend like the US is morally superior to anyone.
- emptysongglass 2y ago
  Please don't whatabout in a thread clearly about two countries that are not the US. There are plenty of threads to go around about US imperialism that are a better place for your comment.
  - bananabiscuit 2y ago
    It’s necessary to whatabout when threads about Russia come up because there are usually plenty of top rated comments (see above) dehumanizing Russians and calling for their extermination. I have never seen any thread critical of US meddling in world affairs express the same hatred of US citizens and supporter's. “whataboutism” should not be used as defense against double standards. Double standards should be clearly called out.
    - emptysongglass 2y ago
      I don't see any comments calling for the extermination of Russians. It sounds like you're making things up to support your own agenda.
    - rainworld 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - fractallyte 2y ago
        What's an "Azovite"? And "ancestral hatred of Russians and Russia"? If my grandparents and parents were victims of Soviet aggression/invasion/genocide, what right do you have to question "ancestral hatred"? The fact that Russia is doing it again is enough to arouse intense emotions in many European populations.
        rainworld 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade You know, the ones with the funny tattoos. I’m sure your ancestors would have recognized those. >Soviet Equating modern Russia and the SU is a widely deployed sleight of hand at the moment. Same with pre-Soviet Russia. No matter how little sense it actually makes. “Show me on this map where the Tsar/Stalin hurt you.” But there is a common thread: Russia was, is, and will remain for a long while the predominant regional power. Pays to have a friendly relationship with them. Ami will go home. Sooner or later.
        rainworld 2y ago
        [Replying to a now deleted post misquoting https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Address_concerning_the_events_in_Ukraine https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Address_concerning_the_events...] >claims these things What he actually claims: I would like to emphasise again that Ukraine is not just a neighbouring country for us. It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space. These are our comrades, those dearest to us – not only colleagues, friends and people who once served together, but also relatives, people bound by blood, by family ties. >criticizes Lenin and Stalin He criticizes the Soviets for creating Ukraine as we know it—Donbass, Crimea and so on. Artificial borders, a people divided; precisely to prevent the SU from becoming synonymous with Russia. And it wasn’t just the Soviets who sought to use Ukraine against Russia. Every day Ukraine-supporters whine about what they consider lackluster support from the West. What’s actually happening is obvious but wishful thinking and a quality reality distortion field prevent enlightenment: While there are real limits of supply, and at times they might have in fact entertained the idea of “winning,” the basic goal is and has always been to cause as much death and destruction as possible without actually getting into a shooting war with Russia. And, of course, most of that death and destruction happens in Ukraine. And then they have the gall to cry “scorched earth.”
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  - therobots927 2y ago
    I have a strong suspicion the parent comment I was replying to was written by someone that thinks America has an infinite moral bank account can draw from to escape culpability for its actions. Maybe I misinterpreted that and if so you’re correct. But the way it was worded seemed pretty clear to me that the author sees the world like a Star Wars movie of good and evil. It’s not. In the real world the Jedi kill kids too.
    - gambiting 2y ago
      >>was written by someone that thinks America Dude, you're the only person here who mentioned America. Feels like you're projecting what you think other people think and reply to that, not to what they actually wrote.
      - therobots927 2y ago
        That’s fair I think that might have happened in this case.
- lawn 2y ago
  The difference is, of course, scale. The evil of Nazi Germany is notable because of the scale of their atrocities. This is the same with Russia where the evil is so systematic and widespread that it boggles the mind. Trying to compare the evil of Russia today to something like Guantanamo can only be seen as furthering Russia's propaganda.
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  - therobots927 2y ago
    Okay fine it’s a scale. You got me, the US is morally superior to plenty of countries. It was hyperbolic to say it isn’t. But still, there is no such thing as good and evil here. Just different shades of evil.
    - gambiting 2y ago
      I'll be honest with you - it feels like the only reason why you brought up US here is to say those last two sentences.
      - therobots927 2y ago
        Another reason I might bring up the US is because in certain contexts especially concerning geopolitics, references to Russia as “the bad guy” is used to justify all kinds of things. The same way Communism (I.e the USSR) was used as a boogeyman to justify US behavior in Vietnam (bombing civilians). Does that mean that I don’t support the US over Russia? Of course I do. I’m a citizen of the US. But I don’t like language like “the real bad guy”. It’s not whataboutism in that context.
        gambiting 2y ago
        I mean, I appreciate that you comment from your own perspective as a US citizen, but I think it's just jarring because 1) even the article didn't mention it, so it feels like a forced comment to say "well, there are only shades of grey". 2) folks who aren't US citizens don't vibe with your perspective the same way. As a Pole I see Russians as unequivcally "the bad guys" because they have done the exact same kind of thing to our country to Polish people in the past. The tales of Polish prisoners in Russian work camps are numerous and pretty much the same as this article describes.
- fodmap 2y ago
  One wrong doesn't justify another wrong. The scale of Putin's Russia crimes are stratospheric. It isn't only tortures, there's raping, kids kidnapping, castration, targeting civilians with bombs, etc. And that isn't all, in particular if you add what Putin's regime is doing against their own people. Also keep an eye on what's still happening in Syria, and what Wagner is doing in the Sahel region.
  - therobots927 2y ago
    I am no fan of Russia and I thought I made that pretty clear? Also… targeting civilians with bombs… where have I heard about that happening lately…
PoignardAzur 2y ago
> what evil looks like and who the bad guys actually are. Whataboutism aside, I really don't get what you're trying to imply with that "actually". Like, is there some country whose blemished record we pretend is terrible, but is "actually" okay when compared to Russia? Julian Assange was recently freed after spending 12 years either cooped in an embassy or in literal prisons because of the US's relentless campaign to punish him for exposing the US's war crimes. (And yes, there are many things to dislike about Assange and his support for Russia is a pretty big one, but the US would have hunted him regardless of these things.) Is the message that the US aren't actually the bad guys? That they're only the bad guys until you compare them to more violent and more openly criminal regimes? In that logic, isn't Russia not-actually-the-bad-guys because it has committed fewer war crimes than ISIS or the Nazis or the Myanmar junta? (Or maybe not. I don't know the numbers for any of those.) The lesson can't be that we're periodically reminded of evil when it's unambiguous and performed by polities opposed to US hegemony. All states do evil given the opportunity, and the only way to close off that opportunity and call them out whenever it happens, whether they are Russian, American, Israeli, Arab, French, Brazilian, Papuan or whatever else.

In an age of strong opinions, ambiguity, and internalized whataboutism, it's good, though disturbing, to periodically get reminded of what evil looks like and who the bad guys actually are.

therobots927 2y ago

Russia vs Ukraine? Yes it’s clear who the bad guy is in that situation (Russia). But there are plenty of countries allied with the US, and even the US itself sometimes, that commit atrocities like this. Guantanamo, for example, has inmates that are known by the government to be innocent who still haven’t been released. Probably because the government knows they would be swarmed by reporters trying to get full details on what was going on inside that torture chamber. Morality is besides the point. All that matters is your passport. Mine happens to be American. Doesn’t mean that I have to pretend like the US is morally superior to anyone.

emptysongglass 2y ago
Please don't whatabout in a thread clearly about two countries that are not the US. There are plenty of threads to go around about US imperialism that are a better place for your comment.
- bananabiscuit 2y ago
  It’s necessary to whatabout when threads about Russia come up because there are usually plenty of top rated comments (see above) dehumanizing Russians and calling for their extermination. I have never seen any thread critical of US meddling in world affairs express the same hatred of US citizens and supporter's. “whataboutism” should not be used as defense against double standards. Double standards should be clearly called out.
  - emptysongglass 2y ago
    I don't see any comments calling for the extermination of Russians. It sounds like you're making things up to support your own agenda.
  - rainworld 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - fractallyte 2y ago
      What's an "Azovite"? And "ancestral hatred of Russians and Russia"? If my grandparents and parents were victims of Soviet aggression/invasion/genocide, what right do you have to question "ancestral hatred"? The fact that Russia is doing it again is enough to arouse intense emotions in many European populations.
      - rainworld 2y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Brigade You know, the ones with the funny tattoos. I’m sure your ancestors would have recognized those. >Soviet Equating modern Russia and the SU is a widely deployed sleight of hand at the moment. Same with pre-Soviet Russia. No matter how little sense it actually makes. “Show me on this map where the Tsar/Stalin hurt you.” But there is a common thread: Russia was, is, and will remain for a long while the predominant regional power. Pays to have a friendly relationship with them. Ami will go home. Sooner or later.
        rainworld 2y ago
        [Replying to a now deleted post misquoting https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Address_concerning_the_events_in_Ukraine https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Address_concerning_the_events...] >claims these things What he actually claims: I would like to emphasise again that Ukraine is not just a neighbouring country for us. It is an inalienable part of our own history, culture and spiritual space. These are our comrades, those dearest to us – not only colleagues, friends and people who once served together, but also relatives, people bound by blood, by family ties. >criticizes Lenin and Stalin He criticizes the Soviets for creating Ukraine as we know it—Donbass, Crimea and so on. Artificial borders, a people divided; precisely to prevent the SU from becoming synonymous with Russia. And it wasn’t just the Soviets who sought to use Ukraine against Russia. Every day Ukraine-supporters whine about what they consider lackluster support from the West. What’s actually happening is obvious but wishful thinking and a quality reality distortion field prevent enlightenment: While there are real limits of supply, and at times they might have in fact entertained the idea of “winning,” the basic goal is and has always been to cause as much death and destruction as possible without actually getting into a shooting war with Russia. And, of course, most of that death and destruction happens in Ukraine. And then they have the gall to cry “scorched earth.”
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- therobots927 2y ago
  I have a strong suspicion the parent comment I was replying to was written by someone that thinks America has an infinite moral bank account can draw from to escape culpability for its actions. Maybe I misinterpreted that and if so you’re correct. But the way it was worded seemed pretty clear to me that the author sees the world like a Star Wars movie of good and evil. It’s not. In the real world the Jedi kill kids too.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    >>was written by someone that thinks America Dude, you're the only person here who mentioned America. Feels like you're projecting what you think other people think and reply to that, not to what they actually wrote.
    - therobots927 2y ago
      That’s fair I think that might have happened in this case.
lawn 2y ago
The difference is, of course, scale. The evil of Nazi Germany is notable because of the scale of their atrocities. This is the same with Russia where the evil is so systematic and widespread that it boggles the mind. Trying to compare the evil of Russia today to something like Guantanamo can only be seen as furthering Russia's propaganda.
- deleted 2y ago
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- therobots927 2y ago
  Okay fine it’s a scale. You got me, the US is morally superior to plenty of countries. It was hyperbolic to say it isn’t. But still, there is no such thing as good and evil here. Just different shades of evil.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    I'll be honest with you - it feels like the only reason why you brought up US here is to say those last two sentences.
    - therobots927 2y ago
      Another reason I might bring up the US is because in certain contexts especially concerning geopolitics, references to Russia as “the bad guy” is used to justify all kinds of things. The same way Communism (I.e the USSR) was used as a boogeyman to justify US behavior in Vietnam (bombing civilians). Does that mean that I don’t support the US over Russia? Of course I do. I’m a citizen of the US. But I don’t like language like “the real bad guy”. It’s not whataboutism in that context.
      - gambiting 2y ago
        I mean, I appreciate that you comment from your own perspective as a US citizen, but I think it's just jarring because 1) even the article didn't mention it, so it feels like a forced comment to say "well, there are only shades of grey". 2) folks who aren't US citizens don't vibe with your perspective the same way. As a Pole I see Russians as unequivcally "the bad guys" because they have done the exact same kind of thing to our country to Polish people in the past. The tales of Polish prisoners in Russian work camps are numerous and pretty much the same as this article describes.
fodmap 2y ago
One wrong doesn't justify another wrong. The scale of Putin's Russia crimes are stratospheric. It isn't only tortures, there's raping, kids kidnapping, castration, targeting civilians with bombs, etc. And that isn't all, in particular if you add what Putin's regime is doing against their own people. Also keep an eye on what's still happening in Syria, and what Wagner is doing in the Sahel region.
- therobots927 2y ago
  I am no fan of Russia and I thought I made that pretty clear? Also… targeting civilians with bombs… where have I heard about that happening lately…

PoignardAzur 2y ago

> what evil looks like and who the bad guys actually are. Whataboutism aside, I really don't get what you're trying to imply with that "actually". Like, is there some country whose blemished record we pretend is terrible, but is "actually" okay when compared to Russia? Julian Assange was recently freed after spending 12 years either cooped in an embassy or in literal prisons because of the US's relentless campaign to punish him for exposing the US's war crimes. (And yes, there are many things to dislike about Assange and his support for Russia is a pretty big one, but the US would have hunted him regardless of these things.) Is the message that the US aren't actually the bad guys? That they're only the bad guys until you compare them to more violent and more openly criminal regimes? In that logic, isn't Russia not-actually-the-bad-guys because it has committed fewer war crimes than ISIS or the Nazis or the Myanmar junta? (Or maybe not. I don't know the numbers for any of those.) The lesson can't be that we're periodically reminded of evil when it's unambiguous and performed by polities opposed to US hegemony. All states do evil given the opportunity, and the only way to close off that opportunity and call them out whenever it happens, whether they are Russian, American, Israeli, Arab, French, Brazilian, Papuan or whatever else.