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> I don’t want to live with conditions like dementia. My mom doesn't recognize me since ten years, she cannot move, she's thin as she had just been liberated

> I don’t want to live with conditions like dementia. My mom doesn't recognize me since ten years, she cannot move, she's thin as she had just been liberated from a WWII nazi concentration camp. She cannot talk, she cannot move. She shows no emotions at all. And yet the doctor refuses, on the excuse that she's fed with a spoon and not a syringe, to sign the papers allowing to euthanize her. There's of course money involved too: the elder care home she's in gets a hefty rent each month. And so does the doctor. I am very angry at this entire system. There's also, of course, a whole issue of legal paperwork / signatures, etc. that are problematic. For, I'm sorry to say it: an empty shell. My mom is long gone. Let her body go. Just fuck these insane laws and rules. It's a totally rotten system.

memen 2y ago
> There's of course money involved too: the elder care home she's in gets a hefty rent each month. And so does the doctor. Leaving this out might make your argument stronger. At least in Europe, there is no shortage of elder people that can be cared for. Most of these elder care homes have long waiting lists, and normal doctors have waiting lists as well. I think it would be more fair to say that it is an incredibly difficult decision to make as an 'outsider', and combined with how the law works with respect to death and liability, procedures and strictness with regards to euthanasia are not that strange.
- yawpitch 2y ago
  I think the point they were making is that the care home and the doctor have a perverse financial incentive to maintain a life beyond the point there’s any quality to that life. Obviously in a half-way decent society costs shouldn’t be a deciding factor in end of life care or euthanasia decisions for the elder or their family, but neither should rent + fees be a compelling interest in the decisions of those providing that care, yet it’s obvious that it can be.
  - memen 2y ago
    Yes, that was what I understood as their point. My point is that it isn't that big of an effect, and also partially discrediting the people involved by saying they only think about money.
    - yawpitch 2y ago
      I think you’re seriously underestimating how big that effect may be. Group care for terminal patients is a massive, and growing, economy in many countries, and doctors and other caregivers are no more immune to perverse incentives and rent seeking behavior as any of us.
      - memen 2y ago
        It may differ in your country, but here in the Netherlands there is just a shortage of supply, not a shortage of demand. All these services have massive waiting lists, so there will be ten others for each person 'leaving the system'. I think it is just a risk calculation. How much does a lawsuit for 'wrongful termination of a life' cost vs how much does it cost to have a 'wrongful continuation of a life' and how often is it expected to occur within a given time period and given a set of safeguards. Then you choose the safeguards such that your expected cost is as low as possible. Doctors are only there to fill in the checklist.
hammyhavoc 2y ago
Thinking of you and yours. Wishing you peace, health and happiness for as long as possible. I'm so sorry.

memen 2y ago

> There's of course money involved too: the elder care home she's in gets a hefty rent each month. And so does the doctor. Leaving this out might make your argument stronger. At least in Europe, there is no shortage of elder people that can be cared for. Most of these elder care homes have long waiting lists, and normal doctors have waiting lists as well. I think it would be more fair to say that it is an incredibly difficult decision to make as an 'outsider', and combined with how the law works with respect to death and liability, procedures and strictness with regards to euthanasia are not that strange.

yawpitch 2y ago
I think the point they were making is that the care home and the doctor have a perverse financial incentive to maintain a life beyond the point there’s any quality to that life. Obviously in a half-way decent society costs shouldn’t be a deciding factor in end of life care or euthanasia decisions for the elder or their family, but neither should rent + fees be a compelling interest in the decisions of those providing that care, yet it’s obvious that it can be.
- memen 2y ago
  Yes, that was what I understood as their point. My point is that it isn't that big of an effect, and also partially discrediting the people involved by saying they only think about money.
  - yawpitch 2y ago
    I think you’re seriously underestimating how big that effect may be. Group care for terminal patients is a massive, and growing, economy in many countries, and doctors and other caregivers are no more immune to perverse incentives and rent seeking behavior as any of us.
    - memen 2y ago
      It may differ in your country, but here in the Netherlands there is just a shortage of supply, not a shortage of demand. All these services have massive waiting lists, so there will be ten others for each person 'leaving the system'. I think it is just a risk calculation. How much does a lawsuit for 'wrongful termination of a life' cost vs how much does it cost to have a 'wrongful continuation of a life' and how often is it expected to occur within a given time period and given a set of safeguards. Then you choose the safeguards such that your expected cost is as low as possible. Doctors are only there to fill in the checklist.

hammyhavoc 2y ago

Thinking of you and yours. Wishing you peace, health and happiness for as long as possible. I'm so sorry.