4 ms·
Why don’t more countries enact laws like this? This makes perfect sense. I don’t want to live with conditions like dementia. I didn’t have a say in my birth, I
by akudha 2y ago
Why don’t more countries enact laws like this? This makes perfect sense. I don’t want to live with conditions like dementia. I didn’t have a say in my birth, I sure as shit should have a say in my death.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoBecause humans have rigid mental models, tradition and cultural inertia, and broadly speaking, an unhealthy relationship with death. It comes for us all, but few want to deal with the anxiety and feelings about sudden loss of existence, not to mention system incentives to prevent a more optimal outcome for human participants.
- melling 2y agoI don’t want to live with dementia either. I bet the 50 million people in the world with it would rather not have it either. How about option B? Cure the disease! The woman in the article is only 71. It’s crazy that in 2024 we have no idea how to slow the disease enough so she gets another 10 years of quality life.
- redserk 2y agoCuring a disease can easily take tens-to-hundreds of millions of dollars or more and up to decades of research. For most individuals, this degree of personal financial and temporal expenditure isn’t available.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoThis. Time value of suffering. Certainly, we should continue to innovate, but also have the freedom to check out when we want on our terms when success is beyond our life light cone.
- melling 2y ago“In 2020, the direct costs to American society of caring for those with Alzheimer’s and other dementias will total an estimated $305 billion” https://act.alz.org/site/DocServer/2012_Costs_Fact_Sheet_version_2.pdf?docID=7161 https://act.alz.org/site/DocServer/2012_Costs_Fact_Sheet_ver... It costs a fortune to treat the disease. We’ll save a fortune by curing it.
- hnlmorg 2y agoYou can’t stop treating people while we research for a cure. And in fact both already do happen in parallel. So your point is moot.
- melling 2y agoHow are we spending for research? Because we are going to spend $18 trillion for treatment by 2050. “Cumulatively between 2023 and 2050, it will cost nearly $18 trillion (in 2023 dollars) — nearly two-thirds of which will be borne by Medicare and Medicaid.” https://alzimpact.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Fiscal%20Year%202024%20Alzheimer%27s%20Research%20Funding.pdf https://alzimpact.org/sites/default/files/2023-03/Fiscal%20Y... So, my not so moot point is we are not spending nearly enough on research.
- memen 2y agoThere is no guarantee the cure will be cheap or even cheaper compared to the current situation. Not to mention the increase in other medical conditions that are bound to occur in the added years of life and add to the total medical bill. Also, note that this investment money is directly related to the number of working hours. All those people working on a cure in labs etc. will have a very different experience in life compared to those same people earning the same money for caring for their fellow humans. It is not a purely financial weighing.
- hnlmorg 2y agoIt's all good and well making statements like that but, and at risk of repeating myself, you cannot stop treating people just because you want to spend more on research. And even if you did magic up more money to spend on research, there's no guarantee that a cure would be found by 2050. Or even if it's curable at all.
- hnlmorg 2y agoNobody suggested euthanasia is an ”alternative” to researching treatment. The problem we have right now is that there isn’t a cure and we don’t know when research will provide one. Or if it even ever will.
- melling 2y agoI didn’t suggest that anyone did. My point is that we can cure the disease by making a big effort. Do we want to cure the disease by 2100, 2075, 2050, or perhaps 2040? Pick a year.
- ulfw 2y agoHow does picking a year cure a disease? That's not how research works.
- melling 2y agoIt’s about level of investment and effort.
- DougN7 2y agoAnd what about the myriad of cancers? Birth defects? Blindness? Parkinsons? ALS? Add to that poverty, malnutrition, starvation, wars… The problem is there is a limited amount of money, lab space, and researchers. Some pragmatism and realism is needed.
- melling 2y agoDon’t forget the $1 trillion in interest on the US debt. The ICE Bucket Challenge raised $115 million for ALS in 2014. Maybe more events like that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Bucket_Challenge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Bucket_Challenge
- yawpitch 2y agoIt’s entirely possible that dementia isn’t a curable thing, though it might be mitigable. A few technocrats who think they’re living in the Altered Carbon timeline aside, cellular aging is probably just a fact of living in a body.
- trilbyglens 2y agoThis is a pretty dumb argument.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago> I don’t want to live with conditions like dementia. My mom doesn't recognize me since ten years, she cannot move, she's thin as she had just been liberated from a WWII nazi concentration camp. She cannot talk, she cannot move. She shows no emotions at all. And yet the doctor refuses, on the excuse that she's fed with a spoon and not a syringe, to sign the papers allowing to euthanize her. There's of course money involved too: the elder care home she's in gets a hefty rent each month. And so does the doctor. I am very angry at this entire system. There's also, of course, a whole issue of legal paperwork / signatures, etc. that are problematic. For, I'm sorry to say it: an empty shell. My mom is long gone. Let her body go. Just fuck these insane laws and rules. It's a totally rotten system.
- memen 2y ago> There's of course money involved too: the elder care home she's in gets a hefty rent each month. And so does the doctor. Leaving this out might make your argument stronger. At least in Europe, there is no shortage of elder people that can be cared for. Most of these elder care homes have long waiting lists, and normal doctors have waiting lists as well. I think it would be more fair to say that it is an incredibly difficult decision to make as an 'outsider', and combined with how the law works with respect to death and liability, procedures and strictness with regards to euthanasia are not that strange.
- yawpitch 2y agoI think the point they were making is that the care home and the doctor have a perverse financial incentive to maintain a life beyond the point there’s any quality to that life. Obviously in a half-way decent society costs shouldn’t be a deciding factor in end of life care or euthanasia decisions for the elder or their family, but neither should rent + fees be a compelling interest in the decisions of those providing that care, yet it’s obvious that it can be.
- memen 2y agoYes, that was what I understood as their point. My point is that it isn't that big of an effect, and also partially discrediting the people involved by saying they only think about money.
- almatabata 2y agoWith the deterioration of the health care system in a lot countries people are afraid that these laws will be used to "fix" the healthcare system. Instead of helping people chose their end this gives administrations the possibilities of saving costs by pressuring patients into euthanasia programs. If the systems worked great people might not have as much aversion to it. Add to that the Abrahamic religions fighting against it as they consider killing yourself or helping somebody to die as a sin. I think this makes politicians afraid of touching for fear of losing the next election. The topic probably loses them more votes currently than it gains.