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It feels like the entire JavaScript world seems overly influenced by e-commerce, pushing all kinds of optimization, even including RSC and SSR. As a former Saa

It feels like the entire JavaScript world seems overly influenced by e-commerce, pushing all kinds of optimization, even including RSC and SSR. As a former SaaS builder, I deeply resonate with the author's point: "I care way more about the speed at which I ship features, and all that complexity becomes a burden on my dev team." This is exactly why I started building ZenStack(https://zenstack.dev https://zenstack.dev) toolkit. The goal is to brings simplicity back to building SaaS applications, using whatever framework you like.

beretguy 2y ago
Ah! Another js framework that will fix problems of all the previous ones… great…
- 000ooo000 2y ago
  Relax. No-one is taking your precious jQuery from you.
  - rc_mob 2y ago
    phew! perfect
  - jampekka 2y ago
    jQuery isn't a framework. As a library it's still precious.
    - 000ooo000 2y ago
      I don't think that distinction is key to the insinuation
      - jampekka 2y ago
        I got the tribal insinuation.
  - beretguy 2y ago
    No, I write my hobby websites to work without JavaScript.
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  I mean, the potential always exist, but I would rather avoid much JS at all and only use a minimal amount of it, which is usually not what JS frameworks intend to let you do.
  - beretguy 2y ago
    That’s what I do. I write my hobby websites to be functional without any JavaScript.
- zer00eyz 2y ago
  How dare you look down your nose at the techonolgical magpies. They do love to collect shiny things!
Tade0 2y ago
That's just the React world which, granted, is the majority of the JavaScript world. Over here in Angular land not much has been happening. Ok, we have signals now, but that's about it. If you want simplicity, use htmx and your backend framework of choice.
- lenkite 2y ago
  I dunno why HN likes to hate on angular. Its an amazing, batteries-included framework where you don't have analysis-paralysis from 100 different choices, easy to pick-up and learn, CONSISTENT, quite performant and doesn't break your build from year to year. (or month to month like some other HN-loved frameworks) React terrifies me. Nothing is consistent. Everything is always a little broken and maintenance is painful. This has been my anecdotal experience doing maintenance work on 3 diff React projects. Framework of current project uses Vue and Vuetify - and its been a very pleasant experience. It was the easiest framework to pick up and get going amongst the three. (Though Angular is still the most stolidly consistent framework)
- graypegg 2y ago
  I was building a big monolith angular (v8 at the time) app a few years ago and I think my old coworkers from that job would get a laugh from hearing me reminisce about it! Angular is actually very nicely laid out as a front end framework. I’m finding the modern react ecosystem more obtuse than old angular apps.
- spoiler 2y ago
  My 2c on the whole React and complexity situation: it's not great, but at the same time it's not as bad as someone people make it sound. Things _can_ be done in a simple way. The issue with React is that it's just a library, and there's some gaps it leaves that companies like Vercel tried to fill (and abused, but that's another topic). So then you get a bunch of new-ish developers who haven't even properly learned react throwing in a bunch of random libraries they also don't fully understand how to use, and you end up with a shit soup. Not because the ingredients are bad, but simply because the cook didn't know how to use them. I've seen people abuse React. I've seen people abuse Redux (and extensions). Even with there being ample resources for both. People want to try to be creative withou planning ahead, and then things happen and the business wants to go on, but devs are rarely given time to integrate and apply stuff they learned from previous mistakes, etc. So while some of the problems are technological in nature, I think the biggest problem is not the technology itself, but how it's combined with inexperienced developers With that said, I'm also a big fan of designing APIs that are easy to use, and difficult to misuse. React has areas of the API which fail on both of those principles though (I hink some of which they want to address with the React Compiler)
jampekka 2y ago
Some feedback on the page: I found the intro blurb[1] a bit off-putting with all the corporatese. Namely "supercharging to unlock potential" gives an instant BS vibe. Don't know how it looks like for other audiences, but I'd guess e.g. HN audience on average do not like it. Just use the space to say what it actually is and does? It's definitely not the worst offender, and that's probably why I wanted to give the feedback. [1] "A TypeScript toolkit that supercharges Prisma ORM with a fine-grained Authorization layer, auto-generated type-safe APIs/hooks to unlock its full potential for full-stack development."
- carlual 2y ago
  Thank you for the kind and thoughtful feedback! The change has been made.
  - jampekka 2y ago
    Very good now, thanks!

beretguy 2y ago

Ah! Another js framework that will fix problems of all the previous ones… great…

000ooo000 2y ago
Relax. No-one is taking your precious jQuery from you.
- rc_mob 2y ago
  phew! perfect
- jampekka 2y ago
  jQuery isn't a framework. As a library it's still precious.
  - 000ooo000 2y ago
    I don't think that distinction is key to the insinuation
    - jampekka 2y ago
      I got the tribal insinuation.
- beretguy 2y ago
  No, I write my hobby websites to work without JavaScript.
zelphirkalt 2y ago
I mean, the potential always exist, but I would rather avoid much JS at all and only use a minimal amount of it, which is usually not what JS frameworks intend to let you do.
- beretguy 2y ago
  That’s what I do. I write my hobby websites to be functional without any JavaScript.
zer00eyz 2y ago
How dare you look down your nose at the techonolgical magpies. They do love to collect shiny things!

Tade0 2y ago

That's just the React world which, granted, is the majority of the JavaScript world. Over here in Angular land not much has been happening. Ok, we have signals now, but that's about it. If you want simplicity, use htmx and your backend framework of choice.

lenkite 2y ago
I dunno why HN likes to hate on angular. Its an amazing, batteries-included framework where you don't have analysis-paralysis from 100 different choices, easy to pick-up and learn, CONSISTENT, quite performant and doesn't break your build from year to year. (or month to month like some other HN-loved frameworks) React terrifies me. Nothing is consistent. Everything is always a little broken and maintenance is painful. This has been my anecdotal experience doing maintenance work on 3 diff React projects. Framework of current project uses Vue and Vuetify - and its been a very pleasant experience. It was the easiest framework to pick up and get going amongst the three. (Though Angular is still the most stolidly consistent framework)
graypegg 2y ago
I was building a big monolith angular (v8 at the time) app a few years ago and I think my old coworkers from that job would get a laugh from hearing me reminisce about it! Angular is actually very nicely laid out as a front end framework. I’m finding the modern react ecosystem more obtuse than old angular apps.
spoiler 2y ago
My 2c on the whole React and complexity situation: it's not great, but at the same time it's not as bad as someone people make it sound. Things _can_ be done in a simple way. The issue with React is that it's just a library, and there's some gaps it leaves that companies like Vercel tried to fill (and abused, but that's another topic). So then you get a bunch of new-ish developers who haven't even properly learned react throwing in a bunch of random libraries they also don't fully understand how to use, and you end up with a shit soup. Not because the ingredients are bad, but simply because the cook didn't know how to use them. I've seen people abuse React. I've seen people abuse Redux (and extensions). Even with there being ample resources for both. People want to try to be creative withou planning ahead, and then things happen and the business wants to go on, but devs are rarely given time to integrate and apply stuff they learned from previous mistakes, etc. So while some of the problems are technological in nature, I think the biggest problem is not the technology itself, but how it's combined with inexperienced developers With that said, I'm also a big fan of designing APIs that are easy to use, and difficult to misuse. React has areas of the API which fail on both of those principles though (I hink some of which they want to address with the React Compiler)

jampekka 2y ago

Some feedback on the page: I found the intro blurb[1] a bit off-putting with all the corporatese. Namely "supercharging to unlock potential" gives an instant BS vibe. Don't know how it looks like for other audiences, but I'd guess e.g. HN audience on average do not like it. Just use the space to say what it actually is and does? It's definitely not the worst offender, and that's probably why I wanted to give the feedback. [1] "A TypeScript toolkit that supercharges Prisma ORM with a fine-grained Authorization layer, auto-generated type-safe APIs/hooks to unlock its full potential for full-stack development."

carlual 2y ago
Thank you for the kind and thoughtful feedback! The change has been made.
- jampekka 2y ago
  Very good now, thanks!