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The Limited Value of Multivitamin Supplements

43 points by gmays 2y ago

CuriouslyC 2y ago
[flagged]
- criddell 2y ago
  I take it you aren’t pregnant right now…
- guerrilla 2y ago
  > there are only 3 supplements that are really worth taking Well, that's pretty far from true. For example, creatine supplementation is very well supported for a majority of strength trainers; obviously protein supplementation is as well if necessary.
- throwawaycities 2y ago
  For anyone starting to take Niacin get the “anti flush.” I’m sure the flush varies by individual but for me the burning/itching sensation is pretty intense for 30-45 minutes.
- Aachen 2y ago
  > Other things like [...] vitamin D might be beneficial for specific people with deficiencies but realistically you'll get more health benefit by just fixing your diet If you're from a sunny place in November~February, please package me some sunlight for breakfast! The linked site has no search results for either D or vitamin D, I guess search is broken. I'm not aware that any regular diet typically comes with sufficient vitamin D, hence people in higher latitudes (like most of Europe) with indoor jobs being commonly deficient and using supplements rather than "just" fixing their diet My doctor prescribed vitamin D after blood work for unrelated reasons, which I take in months where I don't think I'm getting enough sunlight on my skin. This is most of the year, since even if you were outside for 6 hours in winter, you were probably still wrapped in jackets, hats, shoes, gloves, etc.
  - arcticbull 2y ago
    There is very little evidence for vitamin D supplementation unless tests show you are severely deficient. If you’re replete they do nothing. Getting outside is significantly more beneficial. Unless a test shows you’re on the rickets train it’s not going to do much or anything. Basically the same as any other vitamin, if you’re deficient correct the deficiency. If you’re not don’t waste your time. [edit] also note that in the sun UVB rays cause production of vitamin D while UVA rays cause the release of nitric oxide which lowers blood pressure and improves cardiovascular health. That’s likely a real benefit of going outside separate from the D pathway. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z
    - Aachen 2y ago
      I'm sorry but I'm not sure how this relates to what I wrote. You write "unless tests show" when I already mentioned having a prescription based on blood tests, that taking supplements unnecessarily does no harm (so if you have a similar lifestyle/situation to those who were tested and are known to need it, you might as well right?), and that sunlight generates a second beneficial chemical and so one really should just be going outside when my comment explained there is simply not enough sunlight hitting the skin during the cold months to generate much of anything. I'm genuinely confused how this advice is suppose to be used
- lopis 2y ago
  Vitamin D is worth taking for most people in Northern north America a above southern Europe in the Internet, absolutely. Specially people who work indoors.
- Theodores 2y ago
  Whoa there! That is a little assertive and this is a big problem with diet and nutrition. Everyone has an opinion and a little bit of Dunning Kruger goes on. The article hints that it is maybe vegetables that we need to be eating. Supplementation is rarely that, it is usually substitution. If you do eat your greens, nuts and legumes then you will get everything except B12 and D. People that consume animal products get their B12 from the B12 supplement that is fed to the animals, so you can cut out the middle-cow and just stick to a plant based diet, substituting the B12 that you would get through bacteria in soil for a supplement. Or you could grow your vegetables in manure and not wash them, just to get the full B12 experience that our ancestors enjoyed. Plants have no need for cobalt, so bacteria are the only way, and animals don't make B12 themselves, they get it from dirt or supplements. Vitamin D means sun exposure. The body can't overdose on D (D3) because too much sunlight destroys the D that is generated. But then people are a bit funny about being in the sun since there is a lot of 'must wear suncream' propaganda and very little 'heliotherapy' propaganda. You can just hide in the dark and supplement vitamin D. As for fish oil, as a former employee of a government marine science laboratory, I have had time to think about this. I am in favour of giving the fish a break and not eating them just because of some old wives tale about needing to eat fish oil. We are primates and our ancestors survived just fine without trawling the oceans for some toxin-laced fish to heavily market as fish, or is it snake, oil. I don't honestly believe the proponents of 'you must eat your fish oil like a good boy or die' have the slightest clue as to how the body works. I am substituting dirt for B12, doing my physical activity outdoors for vitamin D and getting every other vitamin by making every calorie count by eating leafy greens, legumes, fruit, grains, herbs, spices and starchy vegetables, with everything home cooked with no added sugar or any animal products. So I am in broad agreement with you that you just have to fix your diet, but taking creatine just because you don't bother with eating animal products is in the realm of body dysmorphia. People that lift weights in fitness industry cults do that sort of thing. It is a slippery slope of never being 'big enough' and doing 'meal prep' instead of enjoying really good food. If you eat vegetables that are in season, or at least available in a normal supermarket, then you get all the vitamins and nutrients during the course of the year. Right now I notice that there are no 'spring greens' (it is summer), so, whatever goodness they came with will not be around until next spring. However, there is a new type of cabbage taking its slot, with a similar but different nutrient profile. The liver can store many vitamins and nutrients for a long time, so, if you get enough of all of the vegetables, cook them at low temperatures, then, over the course of a year, you should have enough of everything, just by focusing on cooking really good food with whatever new vegetables are in season. It is not difficult. As for lithium, isn't that the one they give to depressed people in lunatic asylums so they don't experience the full range of emotions? I am just a person with a stomach, and therefore an opinion, so I have no idea. What I do know is that no life form has come with an operators manual in billions of years and most animals seem to do better than us humans when it comes to staying in shape, without taking supplements. A lot of them live longer than us, with parrots, tortoises, elephants and plenty of other notable creatures doing just great without fish or snake oil.
omginternets 2y ago
I don’t think mortality is the right measure, here.
- guerrilla 2y ago
  Exactly. Like how does it effect sleep, feeling of well-being, strength, etc. There are many better metrics. We wouldn't be here if not taking multivitamins killed.
  - resoluteteeth 2y ago
    If multivitamins are really improving things like sleep and strength why is that not showing up in mortality? Isn't there evidence that sleep quality and strength in later life are negatively correlated with mortality? Feelings of well-being have also been shown to be negatively correlated with morality.
    - zosima 2y ago
      A correlating with B and B not correlating with C does not imply lack of correlation between A and C.
      - resoluteteeth 2y ago
        Things like sleep, sense of well-being, and strength are inversely correlated with mortality. If this is a causal relationship, and vitamins cause these things to improve, then mortality should also improve. The fact that this is not the case therefore suggests that either 1) the relationship between these things and mortality isn't causal, 2) vitamins are not improving these things (or I suppose, 3) the relationship is causal and vitamins are decreasing mortality by improving these things but also increasing mortality by other effects in a way that balances out). While it is theoretically possible that none of these things have a causal relationship with mortality and it would therefore be be possible to improve them without decreasing mortality, I'm not sure it's likely. It just seems pretty improbable to me that multivitamins are having all these wide-ranging health benefits that people are claiming and none of these benefits are having even the slightest effect on mortality. For this reason, I think evidence that vitamins don't decrease mortality is actually pretty strong evidence that they are not having these other effects.
amriksohata 2y ago
It would be interesting to see a decade by decade breakdown of the loss of nutrients and vitamins due in fruits and veg due to intensive farming caused by greedy business
xavriley 2y ago
> In 1912, based on research on B vitamins, Polish biochemist Casimir Funk condensed the term vital amines to vitamines. Casimir Funk is one of the best names I’ve ever heard
- nazgob 2y ago
  Kazimierz Funk does not roll off the tongue ;) Casimir it is then.
  - 2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
    rolls off just fine if you know how to pronounce it
ulnarkressty 2y ago
...as a mortality benefit for ordinary people. If you are going through various diseases it is absolutely something that a doctor will order, and there's plenty papers to prove positive effects versus sham therapy. Right now I am taking B12 to help with neuropathy and anosmia after a horrible bout of Covid for example. What I still don't understand is why everyone is talking in 'servings' of vegetables and fruit, instead of cups or ounces.
- finikytou 2y ago
  CUPS is the most horrible measure in the world
  - sundvor 2y ago
    Do you mean the Imperial (284ml), US Legal (240ml), or Metric (250ml) cup?
    - FredPret 2y ago
      When you’re measuring milk or frozen peas, “cup” is more than precise enough. Unless you’re doing rocket science in your kitchen!
      - cogman10 2y ago
        You may be saying this, but it's fine until it's not. A good example of where it's not is baking. Cup works for the wet stuff but will ruin your baking if you use it with flour. Because of flour's ability to compact, 1 cup is a wildly different amount. That really impacts how dry or mushy your bread turns out.
        FredPret 2y ago
        That's not the fault of the poor cup, it simply means flour should be measured by weight instead
criddell 2y ago
> These findings make a case for obtaining vitamins from food sources, rather than supplements, to the extent possible. I wish they would say exactly what it is I can eat today to get 100% of my nutritional needs met and not blow my calorie budget.
- sundvor 2y ago
  Exactly. Taking a few vitamins including multis and D is a very cheap insurance policy. People overestimate how much sun someone in Australia is exposed to on a daily basis for one, especially if I want to protect my skin from dangerous UV radiation. And throw in some very regular WFH on top of that...
- Y_Y 2y ago
  tdeecalculator.com and eatthismuch.com may go some way towards what you want. Eatthismuch will make you up a meal plan and give you all the micro- and macro-nutrient info, although anything fancy requires paying.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    I once concocted a perfectly balanced diet on eatthismuch.com. It was really hard to get every mineral and some vitamins in a regular calorie budget. And then to balance omega 3:6, get lots of protein, etc. It can be done but I wonder if the recommended nutrient requirements are accurate. No human ancestor ever ate the crazy complicated diet I made!
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- chillingeffect 2y ago
  Technically, people vary so much we can't even tell you your needs. E.g. the RDA is sth like a 2 sigma excess. It's not enough for 4% or so of ppl. And even if we could know out needs from day to day, the food varies quite a bit, by varietal, location and season. There's still more wiggle room, bc if we get excesses or shortages, our responses may vary unpredictably. With extra calories, we might suddenly decide to clean the garage. We are not precise machines in a precise environment. Our sexual reproduction and mutations -and that of our food- constantly reshuffle the deck, guaranteeing we can only make broad predictions. The best we can do is accumulate knowledge, observe and create feedback.
atum47 2y ago
Every time I'm traveling I take vitamins supplements. I know my diet is gonna consist of very poor nutrients foods so I feel it's a good safety measure.
tomalaci 2y ago
I usually find that a lot of multivitamins are quite underdosed. Athletic multi-vitamins are better dosed but are stupidly expensive compared to just buying separate. As others have noted, you just need few main vitamins/supplements to cover your most likely deficiencies (Vitamin D, Zinc, Magnesium, Omega, etc.) If you really care about this then find and do a simple general blood test for your micros/vitamins. It will show you where you are deficient and can focus on supplementing on only those. No not much point supplementing micros that are already OK.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- OJFord 2y ago
  > If you really care about this then find and do a simple general blood test for your micros/vitamins. I wish they were cheaper (a broad set is >£100) - would love to do it say weekly, and be able to really see it against the food I've been eating (maybe keep a rough note of that, or just be able to think about it in terms of seasonally what I've been eating).
- fnordpiglet 2y ago
  Magnesium is almost always grossly under dosed because the actually daily dose is quite substantial. I take a multivitamin and a supplemental magnesium and to get the daily recommendation I need to take two magnesium capsules as supplement. If they had included it in the multivitamin it would be a horse pill.
- mrintegrity 2y ago
  >If you really care about this then find and do a simple general blood test for your micros/vitamins. It will show you where you are deficient and can focus on supplementing on only those. Presumably this will only show what you are deficient in based on the previous few days diet, right? So to have a decent measurement you should already have a very stable diet. If you eat like I do, random things from day to day, then your vitamin levels should differ from week to week, or are they much longer lasting?
OJFord 2y ago
Vitamin D is the only one the NHS (i.e. the UK authority) recommends adults 'consider' taking, especially in winter months. It suggests year round could be beneficial for certain groups, such as darker skin (less production of it from the limited sun we get than lighter skin) and those working/spending most time indoors. For everything else its guidance (for non-pregnant adults) is that you should be able to get it from your diet. Not that it says don't or that it's really bad, or especially if you have some inherent deficiency (or you're a menstruating vegetarian, etc.) it could be a very good idea to take the relevant supplement to make it easier than getting it from food, I just thought it was interesting when I was looking through recently that the language is very consistent for all of them, except vit D which has the relatively strong 'should consider taking it'.
- voisin 2y ago
  > Vitamin D is the only one the NHS (i.e. the UK authority) recommends adults 'consider' taking, especially in winter months I have had two doctors in Canada tell me that the government health plan does not cover Vitamin D testing because everyone at our latitude is expected to be vitamin D deficient and should be on a supplement.
  - resoluteteeth 2y ago
    If they really believe that everyone is deficient they should probably cover testing. There is a lot of argument about the appropriate dosage for vitamin d supplementation, so repeated testing might actually be the only way to make sure you're taking the right amount.
    - OJFord 2y ago
      Well per the NHS you should consider taking 10ug (400IU) daily, but up to 100ug (4,000IU) as a supplement would be safe. (Risk of hypercalcæmia if too high.) (As a supplement too, so that's presumably saying ok maybe the person's not deficient, they're naturally at 20ug or whatever, they take a 100ug supplement, add some margin, and it's still safe.) So basically what the doctors/gov health plan say in Canada according to GP makes sense to me wrt that in the sense that you almost certainly are deficient, 10ug is enough, an order of magnitude more than that is still safe; so just take it. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-... (I don't know about the cost to the Canadian government if they wanted to provide it obviously, but to me as an individual it's cheaper to get 365x 10ug supplements than it is to get 1x test to see if I'm deficient.)
ThinkBeat 2y ago
I think it is fairly obvious that a healthy balanced diet, which is carefully balanced to provide the nutrients our body needs is highly preferable. This the composition of needed nutrients can vary greatly for person to person. But in general, a good diet is the way to go. On that is also adapted to change conditions. For instance, the lack of sunlight in Scandinavian countries during the winter, which makes consuming foods rich in Vitamin D is important. However, a lot of people are not motivated and/or privileged¹ enough to do so. A question that then must be asked, if you are not able to compose and consume a healthy diet does a multivitamin have a positive effect? ¹ Using this term may seem controversial but I think it is accurate. If a person is poor and does not have food safety the fight is to find enough food. Not finding the exact food needed for a balanced diet. In general, the food that food banks give out will not be able to provide a proper balance. Add to that though that multivitamins can be expensive and is also out of reach. I have never heard of a food bank providing multivitamins. (even though it would probably be a good idea) Then some people will feel that they do not have the time. Some people have not learned to cook well. Eating healthy was a lot easier when I lived in the US the availability of a broad selection of fruits, vegetables and nuts is great. Norway has in general a small selection of all of the above.
- sandworm101 2y ago
  Or if someone has some need other than the average. Someone diagnosed with low iron can change thier diet to encorporate lots of red meat, kilos of it, or just pop an iron pill once a week.
- whitehexagon 2y ago
  I think part of the problem is that a 'balanced diet' is also pretty poor in micro nutrients/vitamins/etc because modern farming techniques mean the soil itself is pretty exhausted, with just the bare minimum being added back to yield the next crop.
  - zemvpferreira 2y ago
    I get the sentiment but this is very much an exaggeration. Vegetables might have 5% to 30% less micronutrients than 100 years ago if you believe in the accuracy of micronutrient measurements from 1940 (you shouldn't). But there's good evidence that the soil isn't to blame. Rather, we have switched to varietals which grow quicker and have less time to pull good stuff up from the ground. In any case, vegetables are now many times cheaper and more accessible than before. As a species we have hundredfold better access to nutrition than a century ago. The fact is most people feed themselves mostly on flour and oil. That's what's causing a malnutrition epidemic, not poorer vegetables.
shaggie76 2y ago
About 20 years ago, after I'd been vegan for a while, I bought a software package that would analyze my hippy diet to see where I was coming up short. Predictably, my "lazy bachelor vegan" lifestyle wasn't quite hitting the RDI for everything but as soon as I keyed in a multivitamin I had plenty of slack (at least according to this software). Apart from dispelling my concerns about my diet choices it made me realize the number of things that are fortified with vitamin additives: [soy] milk, flour, salt, to say nothing of processed foods like breakfast cereals. So maybe for most omnivores a vitamin supplement is harmlessly redundant given the way modern food is processed?
- voisin 2y ago
  Hard to comment on this without knowing what you weren’t hitting in your diet. Any idea what was low?
  - shaggie76 2y ago
    I'm sorry but it was so long ago I've long since forgotten; I don't know that my lazy bachelorhood diet is a good example anyway (cooking for one with less emphasis on fresh vegetables and more on what I could fit in my backpack to carry home).
- resoluteteeth 2y ago
  Vegan diets are a slightly special situation. If you're vegan you at least need to supplement B12 and you might be more likely to be deficient in other vitamins as well compared to non-vegans, regardless of whether they are consuming processed foods that are fortified with vitamins. I think when people are saying that vitamin supplementation isn't necessary in general, they are not talking about vegans.
  - shaggie76 2y ago
    I wonder, though -- my own experience is my only data-point -- but I got pretty close as a lazy bachelor presumably because of the vitamins that are added to so many things. For example: the Silk soy milk I buy includes the following ingredients: Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin A Palmitate, Vitamin D2, Riboflavin [B2], Vitamin B12. Do they juice it with extra 12 because they know dirty hippies like me aren't eating eggs? I'd believe it. So do I really need a separate B12 supplement? Now that I'm a [just as lazy] middle-aged vegan with better access to groceries and a partner that loves to cook I really wonder.
paiute 2y ago
I stopped reading this garbage after “ the question as to whether these supplements reduce mortality is an important public health issue.”
OptionOfT 2y ago
Interesting read about how consuming essential elements repackaged isn't the same as eating them in their original form: https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Processed-People-Science-Behind-Food/dp/1324036729 https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Processed-People-Science-Behind... It has an interesting quote about fish oil. > Fish oil doesn't benefit us, but oily fish do.

43 points by gmays 2y ago

CuriouslyC 2y ago

[flagged]

criddell 2y ago
I take it you aren’t pregnant right now…
guerrilla 2y ago
> there are only 3 supplements that are really worth taking Well, that's pretty far from true. For example, creatine supplementation is very well supported for a majority of strength trainers; obviously protein supplementation is as well if necessary.
throwawaycities 2y ago
For anyone starting to take Niacin get the “anti flush.” I’m sure the flush varies by individual but for me the burning/itching sensation is pretty intense for 30-45 minutes.
Aachen 2y ago
> Other things like [...] vitamin D might be beneficial for specific people with deficiencies but realistically you'll get more health benefit by just fixing your diet If you're from a sunny place in November~February, please package me some sunlight for breakfast! The linked site has no search results for either D or vitamin D, I guess search is broken. I'm not aware that any regular diet typically comes with sufficient vitamin D, hence people in higher latitudes (like most of Europe) with indoor jobs being commonly deficient and using supplements rather than "just" fixing their diet My doctor prescribed vitamin D after blood work for unrelated reasons, which I take in months where I don't think I'm getting enough sunlight on my skin. This is most of the year, since even if you were outside for 6 hours in winter, you were probably still wrapped in jackets, hats, shoes, gloves, etc.
- arcticbull 2y ago
  There is very little evidence for vitamin D supplementation unless tests show you are severely deficient. If you’re replete they do nothing. Getting outside is significantly more beneficial. Unless a test shows you’re on the rickets train it’s not going to do much or anything. Basically the same as any other vitamin, if you’re deficient correct the deficiency. If you’re not don’t waste your time. [edit] also note that in the sun UVB rays cause production of vitamin D while UVA rays cause the release of nitric oxide which lowers blood pressure and improves cardiovascular health. That’s likely a real benefit of going outside separate from the D pathway. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41574-021-00593-z
  - Aachen 2y ago
    I'm sorry but I'm not sure how this relates to what I wrote. You write "unless tests show" when I already mentioned having a prescription based on blood tests, that taking supplements unnecessarily does no harm (so if you have a similar lifestyle/situation to those who were tested and are known to need it, you might as well right?), and that sunlight generates a second beneficial chemical and so one really should just be going outside when my comment explained there is simply not enough sunlight hitting the skin during the cold months to generate much of anything. I'm genuinely confused how this advice is suppose to be used
lopis 2y ago
Vitamin D is worth taking for most people in Northern north America a above southern Europe in the Internet, absolutely. Specially people who work indoors.
Theodores 2y ago
Whoa there! That is a little assertive and this is a big problem with diet and nutrition. Everyone has an opinion and a little bit of Dunning Kruger goes on. The article hints that it is maybe vegetables that we need to be eating. Supplementation is rarely that, it is usually substitution. If you do eat your greens, nuts and legumes then you will get everything except B12 and D. People that consume animal products get their B12 from the B12 supplement that is fed to the animals, so you can cut out the middle-cow and just stick to a plant based diet, substituting the B12 that you would get through bacteria in soil for a supplement. Or you could grow your vegetables in manure and not wash them, just to get the full B12 experience that our ancestors enjoyed. Plants have no need for cobalt, so bacteria are the only way, and animals don't make B12 themselves, they get it from dirt or supplements. Vitamin D means sun exposure. The body can't overdose on D (D3) because too much sunlight destroys the D that is generated. But then people are a bit funny about being in the sun since there is a lot of 'must wear suncream' propaganda and very little 'heliotherapy' propaganda. You can just hide in the dark and supplement vitamin D. As for fish oil, as a former employee of a government marine science laboratory, I have had time to think about this. I am in favour of giving the fish a break and not eating them just because of some old wives tale about needing to eat fish oil. We are primates and our ancestors survived just fine without trawling the oceans for some toxin-laced fish to heavily market as fish, or is it snake, oil. I don't honestly believe the proponents of 'you must eat your fish oil like a good boy or die' have the slightest clue as to how the body works. I am substituting dirt for B12, doing my physical activity outdoors for vitamin D and getting every other vitamin by making every calorie count by eating leafy greens, legumes, fruit, grains, herbs, spices and starchy vegetables, with everything home cooked with no added sugar or any animal products. So I am in broad agreement with you that you just have to fix your diet, but taking creatine just because you don't bother with eating animal products is in the realm of body dysmorphia. People that lift weights in fitness industry cults do that sort of thing. It is a slippery slope of never being 'big enough' and doing 'meal prep' instead of enjoying really good food. If you eat vegetables that are in season, or at least available in a normal supermarket, then you get all the vitamins and nutrients during the course of the year. Right now I notice that there are no 'spring greens' (it is summer), so, whatever goodness they came with will not be around until next spring. However, there is a new type of cabbage taking its slot, with a similar but different nutrient profile. The liver can store many vitamins and nutrients for a long time, so, if you get enough of all of the vegetables, cook them at low temperatures, then, over the course of a year, you should have enough of everything, just by focusing on cooking really good food with whatever new vegetables are in season. It is not difficult. As for lithium, isn't that the one they give to depressed people in lunatic asylums so they don't experience the full range of emotions? I am just a person with a stomach, and therefore an opinion, so I have no idea. What I do know is that no life form has come with an operators manual in billions of years and most animals seem to do better than us humans when it comes to staying in shape, without taking supplements. A lot of them live longer than us, with parrots, tortoises, elephants and plenty of other notable creatures doing just great without fish or snake oil.

omginternets 2y ago

I don’t think mortality is the right measure, here.

guerrilla 2y ago
Exactly. Like how does it effect sleep, feeling of well-being, strength, etc. There are many better metrics. We wouldn't be here if not taking multivitamins killed.
- resoluteteeth 2y ago
  If multivitamins are really improving things like sleep and strength why is that not showing up in mortality? Isn't there evidence that sleep quality and strength in later life are negatively correlated with mortality? Feelings of well-being have also been shown to be negatively correlated with morality.
  - zosima 2y ago
    A correlating with B and B not correlating with C does not imply lack of correlation between A and C.
    - resoluteteeth 2y ago
      Things like sleep, sense of well-being, and strength are inversely correlated with mortality. If this is a causal relationship, and vitamins cause these things to improve, then mortality should also improve. The fact that this is not the case therefore suggests that either 1) the relationship between these things and mortality isn't causal, 2) vitamins are not improving these things (or I suppose, 3) the relationship is causal and vitamins are decreasing mortality by improving these things but also increasing mortality by other effects in a way that balances out). While it is theoretically possible that none of these things have a causal relationship with mortality and it would therefore be be possible to improve them without decreasing mortality, I'm not sure it's likely. It just seems pretty improbable to me that multivitamins are having all these wide-ranging health benefits that people are claiming and none of these benefits are having even the slightest effect on mortality. For this reason, I think evidence that vitamins don't decrease mortality is actually pretty strong evidence that they are not having these other effects.

amriksohata 2y ago

It would be interesting to see a decade by decade breakdown of the loss of nutrients and vitamins due in fruits and veg due to intensive farming caused by greedy business

xavriley 2y ago

> In 1912, based on research on B vitamins, Polish biochemist Casimir Funk condensed the term vital amines to vitamines. Casimir Funk is one of the best names I’ve ever heard

nazgob 2y ago
Kazimierz Funk does not roll off the tongue ;) Casimir it is then.
- 2-3-7-43-1807 2y ago
  rolls off just fine if you know how to pronounce it

ulnarkressty 2y ago

...as a mortality benefit for ordinary people. If you are going through various diseases it is absolutely something that a doctor will order, and there's plenty papers to prove positive effects versus sham therapy. Right now I am taking B12 to help with neuropathy and anosmia after a horrible bout of Covid for example. What I still don't understand is why everyone is talking in 'servings' of vegetables and fruit, instead of cups or ounces.

finikytou 2y ago
CUPS is the most horrible measure in the world
- sundvor 2y ago
  Do you mean the Imperial (284ml), US Legal (240ml), or Metric (250ml) cup?
  - FredPret 2y ago
    When you’re measuring milk or frozen peas, “cup” is more than precise enough. Unless you’re doing rocket science in your kitchen!
    - cogman10 2y ago
      You may be saying this, but it's fine until it's not. A good example of where it's not is baking. Cup works for the wet stuff but will ruin your baking if you use it with flour. Because of flour's ability to compact, 1 cup is a wildly different amount. That really impacts how dry or mushy your bread turns out.
      - FredPret 2y ago
        That's not the fault of the poor cup, it simply means flour should be measured by weight instead

criddell 2y ago

> These findings make a case for obtaining vitamins from food sources, rather than supplements, to the extent possible. I wish they would say exactly what it is I can eat today to get 100% of my nutritional needs met and not blow my calorie budget.

sundvor 2y ago
Exactly. Taking a few vitamins including multis and D is a very cheap insurance policy. People overestimate how much sun someone in Australia is exposed to on a daily basis for one, especially if I want to protect my skin from dangerous UV radiation. And throw in some very regular WFH on top of that...
Y_Y 2y ago
tdeecalculator.com and eatthismuch.com may go some way towards what you want. Eatthismuch will make you up a meal plan and give you all the micro- and macro-nutrient info, although anything fancy requires paying.
- FredPret 2y ago
  I once concocted a perfectly balanced diet on eatthismuch.com. It was really hard to get every mineral and some vitamins in a regular calorie budget. And then to balance omega 3:6, get lots of protein, etc. It can be done but I wonder if the recommended nutrient requirements are accurate. No human ancestor ever ate the crazy complicated diet I made!
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
chillingeffect 2y ago
Technically, people vary so much we can't even tell you your needs. E.g. the RDA is sth like a 2 sigma excess. It's not enough for 4% or so of ppl. And even if we could know out needs from day to day, the food varies quite a bit, by varietal, location and season. There's still more wiggle room, bc if we get excesses or shortages, our responses may vary unpredictably. With extra calories, we might suddenly decide to clean the garage. We are not precise machines in a precise environment. Our sexual reproduction and mutations -and that of our food- constantly reshuffle the deck, guaranteeing we can only make broad predictions. The best we can do is accumulate knowledge, observe and create feedback.

atum47 2y ago

Every time I'm traveling I take vitamins supplements. I know my diet is gonna consist of very poor nutrients foods so I feel it's a good safety measure.

tomalaci 2y ago

I usually find that a lot of multivitamins are quite underdosed. Athletic multi-vitamins are better dosed but are stupidly expensive compared to just buying separate. As others have noted, you just need few main vitamins/supplements to cover your most likely deficiencies (Vitamin D, Zinc, Magnesium, Omega, etc.) If you really care about this then find and do a simple general blood test for your micros/vitamins. It will show you where you are deficient and can focus on supplementing on only those. No not much point supplementing micros that are already OK.

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OJFord 2y ago
> If you really care about this then find and do a simple general blood test for your micros/vitamins. I wish they were cheaper (a broad set is >£100) - would love to do it say weekly, and be able to really see it against the food I've been eating (maybe keep a rough note of that, or just be able to think about it in terms of seasonally what I've been eating).
fnordpiglet 2y ago
Magnesium is almost always grossly under dosed because the actually daily dose is quite substantial. I take a multivitamin and a supplemental magnesium and to get the daily recommendation I need to take two magnesium capsules as supplement. If they had included it in the multivitamin it would be a horse pill.
mrintegrity 2y ago
>If you really care about this then find and do a simple general blood test for your micros/vitamins. It will show you where you are deficient and can focus on supplementing on only those. Presumably this will only show what you are deficient in based on the previous few days diet, right? So to have a decent measurement you should already have a very stable diet. If you eat like I do, random things from day to day, then your vitamin levels should differ from week to week, or are they much longer lasting?

OJFord 2y ago

Vitamin D is the only one the NHS (i.e. the UK authority) recommends adults 'consider' taking, especially in winter months. It suggests year round could be beneficial for certain groups, such as darker skin (less production of it from the limited sun we get than lighter skin) and those working/spending most time indoors. For everything else its guidance (for non-pregnant adults) is that you should be able to get it from your diet. Not that it says don't or that it's really bad, or especially if you have some inherent deficiency (or you're a menstruating vegetarian, etc.) it could be a very good idea to take the relevant supplement to make it easier than getting it from food, I just thought it was interesting when I was looking through recently that the language is very consistent for all of them, except vit D which has the relatively strong 'should consider taking it'.

voisin 2y ago
> Vitamin D is the only one the NHS (i.e. the UK authority) recommends adults 'consider' taking, especially in winter months I have had two doctors in Canada tell me that the government health plan does not cover Vitamin D testing because everyone at our latitude is expected to be vitamin D deficient and should be on a supplement.
- resoluteteeth 2y ago
  If they really believe that everyone is deficient they should probably cover testing. There is a lot of argument about the appropriate dosage for vitamin d supplementation, so repeated testing might actually be the only way to make sure you're taking the right amount.
  - OJFord 2y ago
    Well per the NHS you should consider taking 10ug (400IU) daily, but up to 100ug (4,000IU) as a supplement would be safe. (Risk of hypercalcæmia if too high.) (As a supplement too, so that's presumably saying ok maybe the person's not deficient, they're naturally at 20ug or whatever, they take a 100ug supplement, add some margin, and it's still safe.) So basically what the doctors/gov health plan say in Canada according to GP makes sense to me wrt that in the sense that you almost certainly are deficient, 10ug is enough, an order of magnitude more than that is still safe; so just take it. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-d/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/vitamins-and-minerals/vitamin-... (I don't know about the cost to the Canadian government if they wanted to provide it obviously, but to me as an individual it's cheaper to get 365x 10ug supplements than it is to get 1x test to see if I'm deficient.)

ThinkBeat 2y ago

I think it is fairly obvious that a healthy balanced diet, which is carefully balanced to provide the nutrients our body needs is highly preferable. This the composition of needed nutrients can vary greatly for person to person. But in general, a good diet is the way to go. On that is also adapted to change conditions. For instance, the lack of sunlight in Scandinavian countries during the winter, which makes consuming foods rich in Vitamin D is important. However, a lot of people are not motivated and/or privileged¹ enough to do so. A question that then must be asked, if you are not able to compose and consume a healthy diet does a multivitamin have a positive effect? ¹ Using this term may seem controversial but I think it is accurate. If a person is poor and does not have food safety the fight is to find enough food. Not finding the exact food needed for a balanced diet. In general, the food that food banks give out will not be able to provide a proper balance. Add to that though that multivitamins can be expensive and is also out of reach. I have never heard of a food bank providing multivitamins. (even though it would probably be a good idea) Then some people will feel that they do not have the time. Some people have not learned to cook well. Eating healthy was a lot easier when I lived in the US the availability of a broad selection of fruits, vegetables and nuts is great. Norway has in general a small selection of all of the above.

sandworm101 2y ago
Or if someone has some need other than the average. Someone diagnosed with low iron can change thier diet to encorporate lots of red meat, kilos of it, or just pop an iron pill once a week.
whitehexagon 2y ago
I think part of the problem is that a 'balanced diet' is also pretty poor in micro nutrients/vitamins/etc because modern farming techniques mean the soil itself is pretty exhausted, with just the bare minimum being added back to yield the next crop.
- zemvpferreira 2y ago
  I get the sentiment but this is very much an exaggeration. Vegetables might have 5% to 30% less micronutrients than 100 years ago if you believe in the accuracy of micronutrient measurements from 1940 (you shouldn't). But there's good evidence that the soil isn't to blame. Rather, we have switched to varietals which grow quicker and have less time to pull good stuff up from the ground. In any case, vegetables are now many times cheaper and more accessible than before. As a species we have hundredfold better access to nutrition than a century ago. The fact is most people feed themselves mostly on flour and oil. That's what's causing a malnutrition epidemic, not poorer vegetables.

shaggie76 2y ago

About 20 years ago, after I'd been vegan for a while, I bought a software package that would analyze my hippy diet to see where I was coming up short. Predictably, my "lazy bachelor vegan" lifestyle wasn't quite hitting the RDI for everything but as soon as I keyed in a multivitamin I had plenty of slack (at least according to this software). Apart from dispelling my concerns about my diet choices it made me realize the number of things that are fortified with vitamin additives: [soy] milk, flour, salt, to say nothing of processed foods like breakfast cereals. So maybe for most omnivores a vitamin supplement is harmlessly redundant given the way modern food is processed?

voisin 2y ago
Hard to comment on this without knowing what you weren’t hitting in your diet. Any idea what was low?
- shaggie76 2y ago
  I'm sorry but it was so long ago I've long since forgotten; I don't know that my lazy bachelorhood diet is a good example anyway (cooking for one with less emphasis on fresh vegetables and more on what I could fit in my backpack to carry home).
resoluteteeth 2y ago
Vegan diets are a slightly special situation. If you're vegan you at least need to supplement B12 and you might be more likely to be deficient in other vitamins as well compared to non-vegans, regardless of whether they are consuming processed foods that are fortified with vitamins. I think when people are saying that vitamin supplementation isn't necessary in general, they are not talking about vegans.
- shaggie76 2y ago
  I wonder, though -- my own experience is my only data-point -- but I got pretty close as a lazy bachelor presumably because of the vitamins that are added to so many things. For example: the Silk soy milk I buy includes the following ingredients: Calcium Carbonate, Vitamin A Palmitate, Vitamin D2, Riboflavin [B2], Vitamin B12. Do they juice it with extra 12 because they know dirty hippies like me aren't eating eggs? I'd believe it. So do I really need a separate B12 supplement? Now that I'm a [just as lazy] middle-aged vegan with better access to groceries and a partner that loves to cook I really wonder.

paiute 2y ago

I stopped reading this garbage after “ the question as to whether these supplements reduce mortality is an important public health issue.”

OptionOfT 2y ago

Interesting read about how consuming essential elements repackaged isn't the same as eating them in their original form: https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Processed-People-Science-Behind-Food/dp/1324036729 https://www.amazon.com/Ultra-Processed-People-Science-Behind... It has an interesting quote about fish oil. > Fish oil doesn't benefit us, but oily fish do.