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> gender is cultural & down to presentation Or in other words: rigid, reductive ideas of what it means to be female versus male. What the trans activist movem

> gender is cultural & down to presentation Or in other words: rigid, reductive ideas of what it means to be female versus male. What the trans activist movement has done is redefine "woman" as being someone who identifies with sexist stereotypes about women, "man" as someone who identifies with stereotypes about men, and so on. While also claiming that everyone has an identity that aligns with sexist stereotypes and this is more important than sex. It's just the same sexism that social conservatives champion, but modified so that instead of saying that women (female) and men (male) have to conform to cultural stereotypes of each sex, they are instead defined by these sexist stereotypes regardless of sex. From "women should wear dresses and makeup" to "the people who want to wear dresses and makeup are women". And on the back of this misogynistic nonsense, insisting that single-sex spaces should be reorganized on this basis. Then getting this implemented in law and policy. > so why call trans-women 'males' Firstly because males in female spaces is the actual contentious issue. Secondly because it was an attempt to avoid a prolonged discussion of arguing if "woman" means adult female of the human species, which is the common understanding, or whether "woman" is the word used to describe anyone who identifies with the set of sexist stereotypes that are typically imposed upon female individuals. Thirdly to avoid being sidetracked by complaints of "misgendering" if I refer to them as men. > Are you actually willing to recognize that they feel as strongly as their chosen gender as you do with your own I'm willing to recognize that some males have an obsessive desire to be women, one that is based upon their male gaze perspective of women. This does not somehow transform them into women, and there is no good reason why actual women and girls should be expected to accommodate these males who desire to be women in female spaces. > and that it hurts them to be demonized and misunderstood by society Then let them take the first step towards avoiding this, by taking responsibility for their actions and voluntarily refraining from any attempt to use spaces designated for the sole use of the opposite sex.

spencerflem 2y ago
What's your take on non-binary? Here's my opinion on gender, as someone who isn't trans, and truthfully doesn't care about gender that much myself tbh: I feel like everyone has their own idea of what it feels like to be them, how they want to present, whether their body feels comfortable and correct, how they like the sound of their voice etc. So in that sense, it's not either: You are a woman because of biology, therefore you are (stereotypes) or the alternative you mentioned: You are (stereotypes) therefore you are a woman, but instead: I am a woman (as I define it for myself) and would like to be treated as such by the world (ie. using preferred pronouns) . For some trans people I know, 'passing' as the other gender feels great, like they're they're finally seen as who they want to be, and for some I know, passing isnt the point. They have their own definition of their gender, one I know is on HRT but prefers to be referred to with "they/them" since they dont feel like either gender fits them. FWIW - I agree that there's tons of stereotypes, many are very obviously harmful "a woman can't be a doctor" and many are harmful by undermining their view of themselves "a woman must wear dresses" or "a woman must be gentle", but I don't really connect what this has to do with trans people. What you're saying is basically: "a woman must have been born biologically female" and I don't really see what adding that restriction helps with. > I'm willing to recognize that some males have an obsessive desire to be women, one that is based upon their male gaze perspective of women. This does not somehow transform them into women, and there is no good reason why actual women and girls should be expected to accommodate these males who desire to be women in female spaces. The point is not to sneak into women's spaces, the point is that this is how they feel about themselves. They want to be a woman in every space. It means a lot to them and is an easy accommodation (just call them their preferred pronoun an honorific) To your point on biological-women's-only spaces, this is imo. a distraction. Anti-trans people like to act like this is their one concern, and they just care about the safety of woman who might be assaulted by perverts in places where they should be safe etc. But this is in absolutely no way the only thing anti-trans people are doing. Medical care like HRT is being restricted in lots of states, and is likely to happen federally. Places like Florida make it a crime for teachers to state their own preferred pronouns to their class. Drag shows are being banned (literally just makeup). The point is clearly to criminalize and stigmatize the idea of being trans. And I'll ask you this: I have a trans friend who is small, has been taking HRT long enough to have all the biological markers of a woman, dresses like a woman, calls themselves a woman, has female hormones etc. should be exclusively in biologically male spaces? And while my trans masc friends happen to be more androgynous, you'd prefer for women's only spaces to feature people who look like this? https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/04/manmade01_courtesy.jpg https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/...
- greenbadger 2y ago
  I see the "non-binary" concept as the result of people holding the belief that being a woman or a man isn't about one's sex, but this supposed inner feeling of "gender identity" that, as discussed above, can't really be explained or understood except by reference to sex stereotypes. It's the identity of the gap left between both these exaggerations of masculinity and femininity. That's also why calling oneself "non-binary" is most prevalent amongst the youngest generation as so many of them were taught the ideology of "gender identity" as if it's fact, and internalized this. > So in that sense, it's not either: You are a woman because of biology, therefore you are (stereotypes) or the alternative you mentioned: You are (stereotypes) therefore you are a woman, but instead: I am a woman (as I define it for myself) and would like to be treated as such by the world (ie. using preferred pronouns). That makes even less sense. If, by this redefinition, being a woman or a man isn't about material biological reality (sex), or about identifying with a set of sexist stereotypes, then there's literally nothing left but an empty declaration. It renders the categories of woman and man entirely meaningless. > The point is not to sneak into women's spaces, the point is that this is how they feel about themselves. They want to be a woman in every space. This just shows even more so that "gender identity" is being used as a flimsy excuse by males demanding access to female spaces. It is apparently meaningless and undefinable, but also supposedly crucial enough to trash all safeguarding policies and principles.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    fwiw, I actually agree with you re: non-binary for your 2nd point - I don't think it's about _sexist_ stereotypes, but it Is about communicating yourself to society, which has certain ideas. For something less charged than gender, say you call yourself a "hippie" or a "conservative" or a "goth" or a "hacker" or anything else. This immediately evokes associations with other people (stereotypes) that are - to some degree but not completely - correct which is why you chose to use that word to describe yourself. This is just how communicating _any_ identity works, I don't think gender is inherently different in any way other than society cares about it a lot more. & For your last point: I really think you're super hung up on this spaces thing. None of my trans friends says this is why they did it. They just want to feel comfortable. I clarified in my last post why I think that this is the wrong take, but honestly, if you're OK with using people's preferred pronouns, don't want to ban HRT, etc., I'm OK agreeing to disagree on this
spencerflem 2y ago
Also- it's not only trans people who feel strongly about their gender and wish their body fit it more. Cis men often wish their voices were deeper, or they had a more chiseled jawline. These are stereotypes just as much as anything else. Cis woman get breast enhancement surgery for gender affirming reasons! It makes them feel good! But when trans women get the same exact thing, or a trans man gets chest reduction surgery, people say it's mutilation. Its the same thing for the same reason!!
- greenbadger 2y ago
  Exactly. In the same way that 12 year old girls shouldn't be getting breast implants because they want to fit some toxic stereotypes associated with being female, they also shouldn't be getting breast removal because they think this somehow transforms them towards being male. It's all harmful nonsense. All of these damaging stereotypes and unhealthy body ideals should be challenged. Instead, the trans activist movement has taken this set of regressive ideals and asserted that this is what women and men actually are. But instead of stating this directly, they obfuscate it behind "gender identity". It's ludicrous.

spencerflem 2y ago

What's your take on non-binary? Here's my opinion on gender, as someone who isn't trans, and truthfully doesn't care about gender that much myself tbh: I feel like everyone has their own idea of what it feels like to be them, how they want to present, whether their body feels comfortable and correct, how they like the sound of their voice etc. So in that sense, it's not either: You are a woman because of biology, therefore you are (stereotypes) or the alternative you mentioned: You are (stereotypes) therefore you are a woman, but instead: I am a woman (as I define it for myself) and would like to be treated as such by the world (ie. using preferred pronouns) . For some trans people I know, 'passing' as the other gender feels great, like they're they're finally seen as who they want to be, and for some I know, passing isnt the point. They have their own definition of their gender, one I know is on HRT but prefers to be referred to with "they/them" since they dont feel like either gender fits them. FWIW - I agree that there's tons of stereotypes, many are very obviously harmful "a woman can't be a doctor" and many are harmful by undermining their view of themselves "a woman must wear dresses" or "a woman must be gentle", but I don't really connect what this has to do with trans people. What you're saying is basically: "a woman must have been born biologically female" and I don't really see what adding that restriction helps with. > I'm willing to recognize that some males have an obsessive desire to be women, one that is based upon their male gaze perspective of women. This does not somehow transform them into women, and there is no good reason why actual women and girls should be expected to accommodate these males who desire to be women in female spaces. The point is not to sneak into women's spaces, the point is that this is how they feel about themselves. They want to be a woman in every space. It means a lot to them and is an easy accommodation (just call them their preferred pronoun an honorific) To your point on biological-women's-only spaces, this is imo. a distraction. Anti-trans people like to act like this is their one concern, and they just care about the safety of woman who might be assaulted by perverts in places where they should be safe etc. But this is in absolutely no way the only thing anti-trans people are doing. Medical care like HRT is being restricted in lots of states, and is likely to happen federally. Places like Florida make it a crime for teachers to state their own preferred pronouns to their class. Drag shows are being banned (literally just makeup). The point is clearly to criminalize and stigmatize the idea of being trans. And I'll ask you this: I have a trans friend who is small, has been taking HRT long enough to have all the biological markers of a woman, dresses like a woman, calls themselves a woman, has female hormones etc. should be exclusively in biologically male spaces? And while my trans masc friends happen to be more androgynous, you'd prefer for women's only spaces to feature people who look like this? https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/04/manmade01_courtesy.jpg https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/...

greenbadger 2y ago
I see the "non-binary" concept as the result of people holding the belief that being a woman or a man isn't about one's sex, but this supposed inner feeling of "gender identity" that, as discussed above, can't really be explained or understood except by reference to sex stereotypes. It's the identity of the gap left between both these exaggerations of masculinity and femininity. That's also why calling oneself "non-binary" is most prevalent amongst the youngest generation as so many of them were taught the ideology of "gender identity" as if it's fact, and internalized this. > So in that sense, it's not either: You are a woman because of biology, therefore you are (stereotypes) or the alternative you mentioned: You are (stereotypes) therefore you are a woman, but instead: I am a woman (as I define it for myself) and would like to be treated as such by the world (ie. using preferred pronouns). That makes even less sense. If, by this redefinition, being a woman or a man isn't about material biological reality (sex), or about identifying with a set of sexist stereotypes, then there's literally nothing left but an empty declaration. It renders the categories of woman and man entirely meaningless. > The point is not to sneak into women's spaces, the point is that this is how they feel about themselves. They want to be a woman in every space. This just shows even more so that "gender identity" is being used as a flimsy excuse by males demanding access to female spaces. It is apparently meaningless and undefinable, but also supposedly crucial enough to trash all safeguarding policies and principles.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  fwiw, I actually agree with you re: non-binary for your 2nd point - I don't think it's about _sexist_ stereotypes, but it Is about communicating yourself to society, which has certain ideas. For something less charged than gender, say you call yourself a "hippie" or a "conservative" or a "goth" or a "hacker" or anything else. This immediately evokes associations with other people (stereotypes) that are - to some degree but not completely - correct which is why you chose to use that word to describe yourself. This is just how communicating _any_ identity works, I don't think gender is inherently different in any way other than society cares about it a lot more. & For your last point: I really think you're super hung up on this spaces thing. None of my trans friends says this is why they did it. They just want to feel comfortable. I clarified in my last post why I think that this is the wrong take, but honestly, if you're OK with using people's preferred pronouns, don't want to ban HRT, etc., I'm OK agreeing to disagree on this

spencerflem 2y ago

Also- it's not only trans people who feel strongly about their gender and wish their body fit it more. Cis men often wish their voices were deeper, or they had a more chiseled jawline. These are stereotypes just as much as anything else. Cis woman get breast enhancement surgery for gender affirming reasons! It makes them feel good! But when trans women get the same exact thing, or a trans man gets chest reduction surgery, people say it's mutilation. Its the same thing for the same reason!!

greenbadger 2y ago
Exactly. In the same way that 12 year old girls shouldn't be getting breast implants because they want to fit some toxic stereotypes associated with being female, they also shouldn't be getting breast removal because they think this somehow transforms them towards being male. It's all harmful nonsense. All of these damaging stereotypes and unhealthy body ideals should be challenged. Instead, the trans activist movement has taken this set of regressive ideals and asserted that this is what women and men actually are. But instead of stating this directly, they obfuscate it behind "gender identity". It's ludicrous.