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I am becoming increasingly concerned with my reliance upon VSCode. With Microsoft's increasingly visible dark-pattern shenanigans, it feels inevitable that even

I am becoming increasingly concerned with my reliance upon VSCode. With Microsoft's increasingly visible dark-pattern shenanigans, it feels inevitable that eventually the other shoe is going to drop. A few design decisions of the platform seemed designed to make it difficult to go elsewhere, and Microsoft keeps changing default plugins away from the fully open source versions to the Microsoft quasi-kinda-pinky-swear-open source variety. Which deprives the open source versions of mind share and development resources.

catgary 2y ago
I’m ready to switch over to fleet for my ML/data science work load once they support plugins (so I can use Ruff) and Jupyter notebooks (the notebooks are mainly for debugging).
- claytonwramsey 2y ago
  For now, you may want to use VSCodium [1], which is a variant of VSCode which doesn't ship any non-free components (and also doesn't include Microsoft telemetry and such). [1]: https://vscodium.com/ https://vscodium.com/
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/docs/index.md#disable-telemetry https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/docs/index.... > Even though we do not pass the telemetry build flags (and go out of our way to cripple the baked-in telemetry), Microsoft will still track usage by default.
    - johnisgood 2y ago
      What is meant by "usage"?
toprerules 2y ago
I mean, what's holding you back from using neovim? Great plugins, same LSPs, anything that's missing you can code up yourself in Lua, works over ssh... what are you really gaining by using VSCode?
- aniviacat 2y ago
  a gui
  - MobiusHorizons 2y ago
    Sure, but how concretely does that hold you back? Not saying I can’t imagine any possibilities, but guis aren’t universally better for editing text. In fact I usually find the gui is what is holding me back, since I end up needing access over ssh/mosh or easier access to a terminal, and tools such as tmux provide much better (imo) ergonomics than I get with terminal-in-ide especially with the ability to zoom one split to fullscreen.
    - spoiler 2y ago
      I honestly don't remember the last time I used a terminal to edit files. I don't really miss vim that much since I still use vim shortcuts in VSCode. I briefly tried Emacs but a lot of the major modes for languages I used were too buggy and those were distracting me too much for it to be my daily driver (maybe I have ADHD, dunno) For what its worth, VSCode also works over SSH. There's a collection of plugins for working remotely or in containers. The main thing that drew me to VSCode originally was pretty good support for fonts and ligatures. And I think I also like some of the QoL plugins I use. The config is just JSON, and it's pretty easily tweakable to how I like it. I've heard good things about nvim and zed though, and I'm tempted to try them. But there's a bunch of idiosyncrasies and quirks that you get used to, so switched kinda feels like a chore
      - MobiusHorizons 2y ago
        Fair enough! Definitely not trying to make anyone change their editor of choice. But I do feel people forget (or maybe never knew) how productive terminal based workflows for editing / compiling / running tests can be once they get used to how their specific IDE exposes those features. I personally can’t think of anything I couldn’t add to terminal workflow except for things like markdown preview or image preview. There are certainly inconveniences like difficulties with copy/paste or mouse based split selection/ scrolling etc that can be worked around in more or less complete and or painful ways. But for the general tasks IDEs are used for i am not aware of anything else a gui really helps with. Hence my question.
bitwize 2y ago
OK, now I'm really glad that Visual Studio Code was one of those "eh, pass" things for me (like GNOME) and I stuck it out with Emacs all this time. Microsoft's play appears to be soup-to-nuts control over every aspect of web developers' work -- from finding a job (linkedin) to source control (github) to libraries and dependency management (npm). Visual Studio Code fits neatly within this play. Windows may have lost web devs' hearts and minds in the 2000s-2010s, but Microsoft has pivoted to where they don't need Windows in order to capture the developers. Wait till Pluton takes hold in a few years, and you need a Microsoft account just to get to the bootloader.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  You think? I've always wondered why they bought those things. I really really hate LinkedIn by the way. But it was like that before the takeover. Nothing really changed for better or for worse.
noduerme 2y ago
I very, very reluctantly switched from Eclipse to VS Code a couple years ago, because certain Eclipse plugins I relied on were no longer maintained. VS is pretty good, but I've never been comfortable with its place in the MS ecosystem, and I worry too about it turning to free-to-pay junk down the line. At least with Eclipse you really could just download and run years-old versions if you wanted to keep your particular plug-ins and favorite setup working.
- dmix 2y ago
  These editors are as much the sum of the plugins and the community around it, not simply the editor itself. Otherwise Vim/Emacs wouldn't have survived as long. Microsoft probably knows it has to play it safe. As much as there are a few bigger name commercial/close sourced ones the average dev is using 20 other niche ones run by volunteers.
seltzered_ 2y ago
There was a decent critique from a couple years ago on this, not sure how relevant it still is: https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ (HN Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32657709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32657709 ) (Aug 2022)
goosejuice 2y ago
I don't find vscode sticky at all. Now cursor, they have something no one else has and sadly it's a codium fork.
Asraelite 2y ago
I've been using the Cursor editor recently. Unfortunately it's based on VS Code, is closed source, and is tightly coupled with Microsoft/OpenAI. But the full AI integration blows everything else I've used out of the water. I feel significantly more productive with it than any other editor. I think in the coming years as LLMs become more powerful, the productivity gap between using AI to code and not using it will only increase. It will become difficult to justify not using AI, despite the privacy concerns. I really hope that open source alternatives can keep up and provide viable alternatives to editors like Cursor.
- devbent 2y ago
  Cursor is amazing, and you can now use Claude as the backing AI instead of OpenAI, if you so wish.
- cedws 2y ago
  I really would suggest not using Cursor, unless you're working purely on open source stuff you don't care about sharing. All of your code goes via Cursor's servers, even using your own LLM API key. https://www.cursor.com/privacy https://www.cursor.com/privacy

catgary 2y ago

I’m ready to switch over to fleet for my ML/data science work load once they support plugins (so I can use Ruff) and Jupyter notebooks (the notebooks are mainly for debugging).

claytonwramsey 2y ago
For now, you may want to use VSCodium [1], which is a variant of VSCode which doesn't ship any non-free components (and also doesn't include Microsoft telemetry and such). [1]: https://vscodium.com/ https://vscodium.com/
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/docs/index.md#disable-telemetry https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium/blob/master/docs/index.... > Even though we do not pass the telemetry build flags (and go out of our way to cripple the baked-in telemetry), Microsoft will still track usage by default.
  - johnisgood 2y ago
    What is meant by "usage"?

toprerules 2y ago

I mean, what's holding you back from using neovim? Great plugins, same LSPs, anything that's missing you can code up yourself in Lua, works over ssh... what are you really gaining by using VSCode?

aniviacat 2y ago
a gui
- MobiusHorizons 2y ago
  Sure, but how concretely does that hold you back? Not saying I can’t imagine any possibilities, but guis aren’t universally better for editing text. In fact I usually find the gui is what is holding me back, since I end up needing access over ssh/mosh or easier access to a terminal, and tools such as tmux provide much better (imo) ergonomics than I get with terminal-in-ide especially with the ability to zoom one split to fullscreen.
  - spoiler 2y ago
    I honestly don't remember the last time I used a terminal to edit files. I don't really miss vim that much since I still use vim shortcuts in VSCode. I briefly tried Emacs but a lot of the major modes for languages I used were too buggy and those were distracting me too much for it to be my daily driver (maybe I have ADHD, dunno) For what its worth, VSCode also works over SSH. There's a collection of plugins for working remotely or in containers. The main thing that drew me to VSCode originally was pretty good support for fonts and ligatures. And I think I also like some of the QoL plugins I use. The config is just JSON, and it's pretty easily tweakable to how I like it. I've heard good things about nvim and zed though, and I'm tempted to try them. But there's a bunch of idiosyncrasies and quirks that you get used to, so switched kinda feels like a chore
    - MobiusHorizons 2y ago
      Fair enough! Definitely not trying to make anyone change their editor of choice. But I do feel people forget (or maybe never knew) how productive terminal based workflows for editing / compiling / running tests can be once they get used to how their specific IDE exposes those features. I personally can’t think of anything I couldn’t add to terminal workflow except for things like markdown preview or image preview. There are certainly inconveniences like difficulties with copy/paste or mouse based split selection/ scrolling etc that can be worked around in more or less complete and or painful ways. But for the general tasks IDEs are used for i am not aware of anything else a gui really helps with. Hence my question.

bitwize 2y ago

OK, now I'm really glad that Visual Studio Code was one of those "eh, pass" things for me (like GNOME) and I stuck it out with Emacs all this time. Microsoft's play appears to be soup-to-nuts control over every aspect of web developers' work -- from finding a job (linkedin) to source control (github) to libraries and dependency management (npm). Visual Studio Code fits neatly within this play. Windows may have lost web devs' hearts and minds in the 2000s-2010s, but Microsoft has pivoted to where they don't need Windows in order to capture the developers. Wait till Pluton takes hold in a few years, and you need a Microsoft account just to get to the bootloader.

wkat4242 2y ago
You think? I've always wondered why they bought those things. I really really hate LinkedIn by the way. But it was like that before the takeover. Nothing really changed for better or for worse.

noduerme 2y ago

I very, very reluctantly switched from Eclipse to VS Code a couple years ago, because certain Eclipse plugins I relied on were no longer maintained. VS is pretty good, but I've never been comfortable with its place in the MS ecosystem, and I worry too about it turning to free-to-pay junk down the line. At least with Eclipse you really could just download and run years-old versions if you wanted to keep your particular plug-ins and favorite setup working.

dmix 2y ago
These editors are as much the sum of the plugins and the community around it, not simply the editor itself. Otherwise Vim/Emacs wouldn't have survived as long. Microsoft probably knows it has to play it safe. As much as there are a few bigger name commercial/close sourced ones the average dev is using 20 other niche ones run by volunteers.

seltzered_ 2y ago

There was a decent critique from a couple years ago on this, not sure how relevant it still is: https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ https://ghuntley.com/fracture/ (HN Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32657709 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32657709 ) (Aug 2022)

goosejuice 2y ago

I don't find vscode sticky at all. Now cursor, they have something no one else has and sadly it's a codium fork.

Asraelite 2y ago

I've been using the Cursor editor recently. Unfortunately it's based on VS Code, is closed source, and is tightly coupled with Microsoft/OpenAI. But the full AI integration blows everything else I've used out of the water. I feel significantly more productive with it than any other editor. I think in the coming years as LLMs become more powerful, the productivity gap between using AI to code and not using it will only increase. It will become difficult to justify not using AI, despite the privacy concerns. I really hope that open source alternatives can keep up and provide viable alternatives to editors like Cursor.

devbent 2y ago
Cursor is amazing, and you can now use Claude as the backing AI instead of OpenAI, if you so wish.
cedws 2y ago
I really would suggest not using Cursor, unless you're working purely on open source stuff you don't care about sharing. All of your code goes via Cursor's servers, even using your own LLM API key. https://www.cursor.com/privacy https://www.cursor.com/privacy