4 ms·

Ashkenazi Jews are not ethnically German. Genetic studies estimate them to be roughly 45% Levantine, 45% Southern European, and 10% Slavic. Germans are 100% Nor

Ashkenazi Jews are not ethnically German. Genetic studies estimate them to be roughly 45% Levantine, 45% Southern European, and 10% Slavic. Germans are 100% North-Western European.

arresin 2y ago
I’ve met many, many Jews. To me visually, many (especially the stein, berg, etc) looked exactly like Germans.
- searealist 2y ago
  Well, your hypothesis is wrong. They are not related beyond a few percent at best.
- kimixa 2y ago
  It looks like there's a mixed consensus on ancestry, but a fair bit of evidence they at least intermixed with European locals since prehistoric times [0] [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/ No idea where the other guy got their %age numbers from, unless you only count specific parts of the family tree.
  - Amezarak 2y ago
    To be clear, that paper is not arguing Jewish ethnic groups were intermixing with European locals since prehistoric times, it is arguing that the Ashkenazi Jews (or perhaps it would be better to say: the proto-Asheknazi Jews) assimilated lots of European converts with ancestry in Europe dating back to prehistoric times.
  - searealist 2y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/
darby_nine 2y ago
Genetics are a poor proxy for ethnicity. There are many who would even refer to the use of blood quantum (e.g. 23-and-me) to determine ethnicity as a form of race (pseudo)science.
- Amezarak 2y ago
  My understanding of ethnicity on a genetic level is basically that it's the degree of relatedness above "clan", e.g., you have something of a hierarchy from: individual > family > clan > ethnicity. What's the issue with declaring some sufficiently high degree of relatedness ethnicity? Or is relatedness that diffuse not measurable?
  - gizmo686 2y ago
    It is not that genetic simmilarity is inherently meaninglessness. Just that it is not a good proxy for the social concepts people are generally using it to talk about.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
- runarberg 2y ago
  I’m curious how they assign percentage to geographic location. For me it fails the sniff tests. Like how far back do you pick your line of ancestry (which has migrated all over the world) when you say stop and determine, this is the place 20% of my bloodline is from? I imagine they do some sort of cluster analysis to find correlation along with self-identification. If so, then this is undeniably junk science based on junk-in junk-out statistical models (which is often the case with cluster-analysis). I’m simply curious here, cluster analysis is the only method I can think of (other than guessing/categorizing arbitrarily).
  - thrownv7032g 2y ago
    I'd think bones from a couple hundred or thousand or ten-thousand years ago would provide a okay trail.
moshegramovsky 2y ago
A lot of people think I am Mexican.
Gormo 2y ago
How do estimates of genetic origin relate to ethnic affiliation? Ethnicity is about culture, customs, and language, not genetics. As far as genetics go, it's worth pointing out that there's a bit of question begging involved in identifying specific genetics with regional cultural groups in the first place.
- searealist 2y ago
  You don't think people from a certain place tend to share similar genetics?

Ashkenazi Jews are not ethnically German. Genetic studies estimate them to be roughly 45% Levantine, 45% Southern European, and 10% Slavic. Germans are 100% North-Western European.

arresin 2y ago

I’ve met many, many Jews. To me visually, many (especially the stein, berg, etc) looked exactly like Germans.

searealist 2y ago
Well, your hypothesis is wrong. They are not related beyond a few percent at best.
kimixa 2y ago
It looks like there's a mixed consensus on ancestry, but a fair bit of evidence they at least intermixed with European locals since prehistoric times [0] [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3806353/ No idea where the other guy got their %age numbers from, unless you only count specific parts of the family tree.
- Amezarak 2y ago
  To be clear, that paper is not arguing Jewish ethnic groups were intermixing with European locals since prehistoric times, it is arguing that the Ashkenazi Jews (or perhaps it would be better to say: the proto-Asheknazi Jews) assimilated lots of European converts with ancestry in Europe dating back to prehistoric times.
- searealist 2y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380316/

darby_nine 2y ago

Genetics are a poor proxy for ethnicity. There are many who would even refer to the use of blood quantum (e.g. 23-and-me) to determine ethnicity as a form of race (pseudo)science.

Amezarak 2y ago
My understanding of ethnicity on a genetic level is basically that it's the degree of relatedness above "clan", e.g., you have something of a hierarchy from: individual > family > clan > ethnicity. What's the issue with declaring some sufficiently high degree of relatedness ethnicity? Or is relatedness that diffuse not measurable?
- gizmo686 2y ago
  It is not that genetic simmilarity is inherently meaninglessness. Just that it is not a good proxy for the social concepts people are generally using it to talk about.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
runarberg 2y ago
I’m curious how they assign percentage to geographic location. For me it fails the sniff tests. Like how far back do you pick your line of ancestry (which has migrated all over the world) when you say stop and determine, this is the place 20% of my bloodline is from? I imagine they do some sort of cluster analysis to find correlation along with self-identification. If so, then this is undeniably junk science based on junk-in junk-out statistical models (which is often the case with cluster-analysis). I’m simply curious here, cluster analysis is the only method I can think of (other than guessing/categorizing arbitrarily).
- thrownv7032g 2y ago
  I'd think bones from a couple hundred or thousand or ten-thousand years ago would provide a okay trail.

moshegramovsky 2y ago

A lot of people think I am Mexican.

Gormo 2y ago

How do estimates of genetic origin relate to ethnic affiliation? Ethnicity is about culture, customs, and language, not genetics. As far as genetics go, it's worth pointing out that there's a bit of question begging involved in identifying specific genetics with regional cultural groups in the first place.

searealist 2y ago
You don't think people from a certain place tend to share similar genetics?