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The Supreme Court doesn't resolve cases directly, they resolve questions of law for lower courts to take into account. They are meant to be experts in law, so t

The Supreme Court doesn't resolve cases directly, they resolve questions of law for lower courts to take into account. They are meant to be experts in law, so there's no problem there. The lower courts can't be experts in everything, but bear in mind two things: 1. Courts have expert witnesses and a whole system around how they are called, challenged and questioned. Judges are trained to learn what they need to know from witnesses. 2. Good court systems do have expert judges they can draw on. I recently took part in the Craig Wright case in the UK as a witness. Wright forged enormous quantities of evidence and proving the forgeries often required deep technical knowledge about file metadata, how computers worked etc. Fortunately the judge was deeply technical himself, being often a judge on complex patent cases, and had no difficulty with any of the complexities.

bumby 2y ago
It reads like it creates a deliberate impasse. The opinion states that ambiguities in law no longer implicitly give agencies discretion. That means Congress has to write unambiguous laws. But my original post acknowledges they cannot. Based on this ruling, it seems like anything other than a perfect, airtight law means it's effectively non-enforceable. So where does that leave us? It seems like the SC has laid the table for constant rules-lawyering by corporations to get whatever they want. In other words, they've let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
- mike_hearn 2y ago
  > That means Congress has to write unambiguous laws I don't understand where this belief is coming from. The judgement explicitly states that writing unambiguous laws isn't possible. There will still be ambiguous laws, and those ambiguities will still be resolved. The only matter being decided on is who gets to resolve ambiguities - is it the agencies or is it the courts. Let's put this another way. Did Congress have to write unambiguous laws or have them be unenforceable before 1984? Clearly not. The Constitution itself is ambiguous on many points. Do other countries, which lack any equivalent of Chevron deference, have to write unambiguous laws or have them be unenforceable? Again, clearly not.
  - bumby 2y ago
    >The only matter being decided on is who gets to resolve ambiguities - is it the agencies or is it the courts. I think we are agreeing here. I think the distinction is that I'm claiming the courts would need (yet don't have) the expertise to clear up ambiguities in such domains. Where do I get this claim? From the justices themselves.[1] There is evidence they are overly confident in their understanding when "doing their own research" on a domain outside their expertise.[2] So given that context, it's probably a bad idea to have justices decide on ambiguities. But if that power resides in them now, it means the only way to have effective laws is to avoid ambiguities in the first place. That's why I stated that is now on Congress. However, the court is also acknowledging that isn't possible. That's why I originally said it reads like they created a deliberate stalemate. From the court we have the following: 1) Congress cannot be expected to create unambiguous laws. 2) It is the court's job to resolve ambiguities. 3) The court lacks domain expertise. I'm claiming those set up a natural conflict because expertise is necessary to effectively resolve ambiguity. The most generous interpretation is that the justices don't need to know the details of the domain expertise, but rather just need to know how it interfaces with people and the law.[3] I'm pretty skeptical of that leading to good outcomes in complex, nuanced situations. I don't think we can pretend law is abstractly disconnected from the complex systems it regulates. As society progresses, most things get more complex so I expect the problem to get worse, not better. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/supreme-court-google-tech-social-media-section-230-justices-internet-2023-2?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/supreme-court-google-tech-so... [2] https://www.propublica.org/article/supreme-court-errors-are-not-hard-to-find https://www.propublica.org/article/supreme-court-errors-are-... [3] https://www.vox.com/2014/4/23/5644154/the-supreme-courts-technical-cluelessness-makes-them-better-justices https://www.vox.com/2014/4/23/5644154/the-supreme-courts-tec...
    - mike_hearn 2y ago
      Remember that law is first and foremost meant to be read by ordinary people, as they are the ones expected to know it and follow it. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, etc. If a law is so difficult that even a judge armed with a courtroom full of expert witnesses can't figure out what it means it should not exist, because how could any actual citizen be expected to understand or obey it? People who write such laws don't get to whinge when other people try to clean up their mess. There's certainly no evidence of an attempt to create a deliberate stalemate here, as "laws that judges cannot interpret even with help" isn't something the Supreme Court is going to consider a legitimate problem to begin with so why would they consider it? But it's fascinating the degree to which some people on this thread are sure this is all a cunning secret plan by the justices to advance a political ideology. Projection, much? > There is evidence they are overly confident in their understanding when "doing their own research" on a domain outside their expertise.[2] Great. So are regulators, politicians and especially journalists. The idea that agencies never rely on bogus claims or statistics is a deeply romantic view. Really, I don't have any sympathy for the US regulatory agencies on this issue. Too many of them have a history of abusing Chevron deference. If the deference standard had any advantage at all it'd be that you could get binding rulings from regulators ahead of time, without needing to actually end up in court first. But regulators always refuse to do that, because they aren't obliged to and it would reduce their options. Instead what they do is make vague rules, tell citizens (e.g. entrepreneurs) who ask for clarification to get lost, wait years for some of those people to make successful businesses and then decide that what they were doing had been illegal all along under some strange interpretation of the relevant rule. It's a form of retroactive lawmaking, which is forbidden by basically any constitution because the whole point of law is that people are meant to be able to follow it. This sort of abusive behavior is so common it's clearly deliberate. Instead of helping society, the agencies end up working against it in order to maximize their own power. Having the people who interpret laws be fully separated from those who write the laws aligns incentives properly: there's no longer any benefit to passing maximally vague or contradictory rules in the hope of being able to do whatever you want later. Laws that are as specific and clear as possible is exactly what a society needs to succeed, because when the rules are clear people are free to innovate and do business without fear.
thfuran 2y ago
>Courts have expert witnesses and a whole system around how they are called, challenged and questioned. Yes, but this is a system where everyone involved is trying to (help their team) win rather than trying to produce generally efficacious policy.
- SllX 2y ago
  Well they’re not trying to produce any policy. A District court is trying to resolve a case brought before them.
  - thfuran 2y ago
    Yes, that's my point. An agency interpreting the law that governs their mandate is at least nominally trying to do so in a manner that yields effective policy, but that's not really a goal of the courts, so letting the courts defer to the agencies probably will produce better policy then leaving it up to case law.
    - SllX 2y ago
      Yeah, but giving too much deference to agencies is also a recipe for peoples' rights to be trampled by a regulatory agency acting unlawfully. Acting in accordance with their policy goals is fine and all, but they still have to do so within the bounds of the law and if they're losing at the District level because they can't rely on Chevron deference anymore, I mean, that's completely fine. Go back to Congress. Despite its reputation for not passing any laws, the last session of Congress still passed a fair number of laws: https://legiscan.com/US/legislation/2021?status=passed https://legiscan.com/US/legislation/2021?status=passed (The current one seems to be a fair bit behind, but it is also operating on razor thin vote margins and the session is not over yet).
      - bumby 2y ago
        How does this ruling fix that issue when the court admits it’s impossible to avoid ambiguous laws? Now it’s just unelected justices deciding instead of unelected agency bureaucrats. I think there’s an argument that could be worse, given the lifetime appointments of the court; at least the people have the chance to course correct the executive branch every four years. I think we can all agree that the best solution is unambiguous laws, but that’s an impossibility by the courts own admission. Chevron already had a mechanism to prevent agency overreach by giving the court discretion to determine the reasonableness of an agency interpretation. This now just puts the onus on the court to do it all, and they admit they don’t have domain expertise. I fail to see how that is a better solution.
suzzer99 2y ago
I just to work for one of the leading expert witnesses in the country. Expert witnesses are just advocates, hired by a client, who know how to throw fancy words around in a soothing, confident manner that makes the listener feel smart.
- TimTheTinker 2y ago
  That's a rather cynical take. An abuse of a form doesn't invalidate that form's validity. I would be logically incoherent to assert that all hamburgers are crap on the basis of having worked at McDonalds for years.
  - suzzer99 2y ago
    It's not abuse of the form. It is the form. Nobody has a career as an expert witness for long if they go against a client's wishes. There is no such thing as an impartial expert witness in the current system. They're all hired by one side or the other. They're basically subject-matter expert lawyers.
    - TimTheTinker 2y ago
      > It's not abuse of the form. It is the form. > There is no such thing as an impartial expert witness in the current system You're saying a form is bad because it doesn't line up with how it ought to be (you said "impartial"). But in saying so, you imply there is an ought. That is the real form (what it ought to be): an impartial expert witness. When a form only presently exists in an abuse thereof, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the form as a worthy pursuit. History can tell us whether such a form is worth pursuing. Expert witnesses in the US have been more or less impartial in the past. Communism has never been achieved, and its pursuit has never led to well-being of the people. Both are "ideal forms" in a philosophical sense, but history bears out which is worth pursuing and practically achievable. So my take is that what's needed is reform of expert testimony through congressional law, including independent review of DAs, to ensure they prosecute expert witnesses who failed a legal impartiality test.

bumby 2y ago

It reads like it creates a deliberate impasse. The opinion states that ambiguities in law no longer implicitly give agencies discretion. That means Congress has to write unambiguous laws. But my original post acknowledges they cannot. Based on this ruling, it seems like anything other than a perfect, airtight law means it's effectively non-enforceable. So where does that leave us? It seems like the SC has laid the table for constant rules-lawyering by corporations to get whatever they want. In other words, they've let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

mike_hearn 2y ago
> That means Congress has to write unambiguous laws I don't understand where this belief is coming from. The judgement explicitly states that writing unambiguous laws isn't possible. There will still be ambiguous laws, and those ambiguities will still be resolved. The only matter being decided on is who gets to resolve ambiguities - is it the agencies or is it the courts. Let's put this another way. Did Congress have to write unambiguous laws or have them be unenforceable before 1984? Clearly not. The Constitution itself is ambiguous on many points. Do other countries, which lack any equivalent of Chevron deference, have to write unambiguous laws or have them be unenforceable? Again, clearly not.
- bumby 2y ago
  >The only matter being decided on is who gets to resolve ambiguities - is it the agencies or is it the courts. I think we are agreeing here. I think the distinction is that I'm claiming the courts would need (yet don't have) the expertise to clear up ambiguities in such domains. Where do I get this claim? From the justices themselves.[1] There is evidence they are overly confident in their understanding when "doing their own research" on a domain outside their expertise.[2] So given that context, it's probably a bad idea to have justices decide on ambiguities. But if that power resides in them now, it means the only way to have effective laws is to avoid ambiguities in the first place. That's why I stated that is now on Congress. However, the court is also acknowledging that isn't possible. That's why I originally said it reads like they created a deliberate stalemate. From the court we have the following: 1) Congress cannot be expected to create unambiguous laws. 2) It is the court's job to resolve ambiguities. 3) The court lacks domain expertise. I'm claiming those set up a natural conflict because expertise is necessary to effectively resolve ambiguity. The most generous interpretation is that the justices don't need to know the details of the domain expertise, but rather just need to know how it interfaces with people and the law.[3] I'm pretty skeptical of that leading to good outcomes in complex, nuanced situations. I don't think we can pretend law is abstractly disconnected from the complex systems it regulates. As society progresses, most things get more complex so I expect the problem to get worse, not better. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/supreme-court-google-tech-social-media-section-230-justices-internet-2023-2?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/supreme-court-google-tech-so... [2] https://www.propublica.org/article/supreme-court-errors-are-not-hard-to-find https://www.propublica.org/article/supreme-court-errors-are-... [3] https://www.vox.com/2014/4/23/5644154/the-supreme-courts-technical-cluelessness-makes-them-better-justices https://www.vox.com/2014/4/23/5644154/the-supreme-courts-tec...
  - mike_hearn 2y ago
    Remember that law is first and foremost meant to be read by ordinary people, as they are the ones expected to know it and follow it. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse, etc. If a law is so difficult that even a judge armed with a courtroom full of expert witnesses can't figure out what it means it should not exist, because how could any actual citizen be expected to understand or obey it? People who write such laws don't get to whinge when other people try to clean up their mess. There's certainly no evidence of an attempt to create a deliberate stalemate here, as "laws that judges cannot interpret even with help" isn't something the Supreme Court is going to consider a legitimate problem to begin with so why would they consider it? But it's fascinating the degree to which some people on this thread are sure this is all a cunning secret plan by the justices to advance a political ideology. Projection, much? > There is evidence they are overly confident in their understanding when "doing their own research" on a domain outside their expertise.[2] Great. So are regulators, politicians and especially journalists. The idea that agencies never rely on bogus claims or statistics is a deeply romantic view. Really, I don't have any sympathy for the US regulatory agencies on this issue. Too many of them have a history of abusing Chevron deference. If the deference standard had any advantage at all it'd be that you could get binding rulings from regulators ahead of time, without needing to actually end up in court first. But regulators always refuse to do that, because they aren't obliged to and it would reduce their options. Instead what they do is make vague rules, tell citizens (e.g. entrepreneurs) who ask for clarification to get lost, wait years for some of those people to make successful businesses and then decide that what they were doing had been illegal all along under some strange interpretation of the relevant rule. It's a form of retroactive lawmaking, which is forbidden by basically any constitution because the whole point of law is that people are meant to be able to follow it. This sort of abusive behavior is so common it's clearly deliberate. Instead of helping society, the agencies end up working against it in order to maximize their own power. Having the people who interpret laws be fully separated from those who write the laws aligns incentives properly: there's no longer any benefit to passing maximally vague or contradictory rules in the hope of being able to do whatever you want later. Laws that are as specific and clear as possible is exactly what a society needs to succeed, because when the rules are clear people are free to innovate and do business without fear.

thfuran 2y ago

>Courts have expert witnesses and a whole system around how they are called, challenged and questioned. Yes, but this is a system where everyone involved is trying to (help their team) win rather than trying to produce generally efficacious policy.

SllX 2y ago
Well they’re not trying to produce any policy. A District court is trying to resolve a case brought before them.
- thfuran 2y ago
  Yes, that's my point. An agency interpreting the law that governs their mandate is at least nominally trying to do so in a manner that yields effective policy, but that's not really a goal of the courts, so letting the courts defer to the agencies probably will produce better policy then leaving it up to case law.
  - SllX 2y ago
    Yeah, but giving too much deference to agencies is also a recipe for peoples' rights to be trampled by a regulatory agency acting unlawfully. Acting in accordance with their policy goals is fine and all, but they still have to do so within the bounds of the law and if they're losing at the District level because they can't rely on Chevron deference anymore, I mean, that's completely fine. Go back to Congress. Despite its reputation for not passing any laws, the last session of Congress still passed a fair number of laws: https://legiscan.com/US/legislation/2021?status=passed https://legiscan.com/US/legislation/2021?status=passed (The current one seems to be a fair bit behind, but it is also operating on razor thin vote margins and the session is not over yet).
    - bumby 2y ago
      How does this ruling fix that issue when the court admits it’s impossible to avoid ambiguous laws? Now it’s just unelected justices deciding instead of unelected agency bureaucrats. I think there’s an argument that could be worse, given the lifetime appointments of the court; at least the people have the chance to course correct the executive branch every four years. I think we can all agree that the best solution is unambiguous laws, but that’s an impossibility by the courts own admission. Chevron already had a mechanism to prevent agency overreach by giving the court discretion to determine the reasonableness of an agency interpretation. This now just puts the onus on the court to do it all, and they admit they don’t have domain expertise. I fail to see how that is a better solution.

suzzer99 2y ago

I just to work for one of the leading expert witnesses in the country. Expert witnesses are just advocates, hired by a client, who know how to throw fancy words around in a soothing, confident manner that makes the listener feel smart.

TimTheTinker 2y ago
That's a rather cynical take. An abuse of a form doesn't invalidate that form's validity. I would be logically incoherent to assert that all hamburgers are crap on the basis of having worked at McDonalds for years.
- suzzer99 2y ago
  It's not abuse of the form. It is the form. Nobody has a career as an expert witness for long if they go against a client's wishes. There is no such thing as an impartial expert witness in the current system. They're all hired by one side or the other. They're basically subject-matter expert lawyers.
  - TimTheTinker 2y ago
    > It's not abuse of the form. It is the form. > There is no such thing as an impartial expert witness in the current system You're saying a form is bad because it doesn't line up with how it ought to be (you said "impartial"). But in saying so, you imply there is an ought. That is the real form (what it ought to be): an impartial expert witness. When a form only presently exists in an abuse thereof, that doesn't necessarily invalidate the form as a worthy pursuit. History can tell us whether such a form is worth pursuing. Expert witnesses in the US have been more or less impartial in the past. Communism has never been achieved, and its pursuit has never led to well-being of the people. Both are "ideal forms" in a philosophical sense, but history bears out which is worth pursuing and practically achievable. So my take is that what's needed is reform of expert testimony through congressional law, including independent review of DAs, to ensure they prosecute expert witnesses who failed a legal impartiality test.