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Congress may be inefficient (by design, basically) but they have one advantage: they're elected. Everyone fantasizes about government by an unelected group of e

Congress may be inefficient (by design, basically) but they have one advantage: they're elected. Everyone fantasizes about government by an unelected group of experts, until they wake up one day and find out those unelected experts don't share their values at all -- and there's nothing they can do about it.

ElevenLathe 2y ago
[flagged]
- psunavy03 2y ago
  The totally reasonable practice of "I lost the game, so I'm going to flip over the table and pull a gun."
  - Arainach 2y ago
    When your opponents are lying, cheating, and breaking their own made up rules (no supreme court nominees during the lame duck session unless nominated by a Republican) your characterization is uncalled for.
  - immibis 2y ago
    Yes, the right have been doing it for a long time and it works. Either make it stop working, or copy the thing that works. Don't just handicap yourself to a guaranteed loss.
    - ElevenLathe 2y ago
      Nothing in the rulebook says a {dog,Democrat} can't {play basketball,appoint liberal judges}.
      - immibis 2y ago
        But they don't.
      - thyrsus 2y ago
        Tell that to Merrick Garland and Mitch McConnell.
  - ElevenLathe 2y ago
    The rules are that the executive can appoint judges. Right wing executives take advantage of this rule. Doing the same from the other corner seems reasonable too. The failure to do so means that the Democratic party is incompetent, uninterested in enacting their own alleged policies, or some combination of the two. Some people say "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" but this is even a level removed. This is a perfectly legal move that they've denied themselves for no material reason.
- mistrial9 2y ago
  superficially this argument seems reasonable.. but my limited understanding of the history of the Supreme Court of the United States says that there have been substantially different eras, and substantially different rules in those eras, for this same Federal body. Needless to say, in a "two party" political system, the details of what each of those two parties represents has also changed dramatically.. i.e. what is called conservative has changed quite a lot, many times.. same with "liberal"
- mschuster91 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - immibis 2y ago
    Indeed they have already done so - many left-wing voters are swearing off voting for Biden, over his support for the Gaza genocide. This guarantees a Trump victory.
  - ElevenLathe 2y ago
    The issue is that the "ethics and morals" of the powerful are in reality weapons pointed at working people. If using state power gained through elections to improve the lives of the people who elected you is immoral or unethical, your system of ethics is a farce.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  Appointing people based on party loyalty is always cited as one of the major reason the Soviet Union became a slow-motion train wreck. It's not something America should emulate. Not to mention that packing the courts could well be interpreted as an open attack against the separation of powers
hypothesis 2y ago
> Everyone fantasizes about government by an unelected group of experts, until they wake up one day and find out those unelected experts don't share their values at all -- and there's nothing they can do about it. Does SCOTUS fit into this hypothetical?
- db48x 2y ago
  No, because they neither make laws nor execute them.
digging 2y ago
This implies the common false dichotomy though that public officials can only be either: elected in toxic, wasteful campaign cycles every 4 years; or completely independent of public oversight. Those aren't the only two mechanisms that exist to develop an administrative apparatus. They are actually two points on a spectrum, and in fact closer to being at either end of the spectrum. One, quick example: You can have appointed experts who can be recalled by public input but never have to campaign for election. I'm writing this in short minutes with zero research so be assured there are countless possible systems that exist in the infinite space between the two binary options implied by your dilemma. In other words, being elected to office is not the advantage of congress. The advantage we seek is public accountability. Public elections are a pretty fucking poor proxy for accountability though because we end up with single-issue voters acting out of rage and electing people who are specifically inept at their job.

ElevenLathe 2y ago

[flagged]

psunavy03 2y ago
The totally reasonable practice of "I lost the game, so I'm going to flip over the table and pull a gun."
- Arainach 2y ago
  When your opponents are lying, cheating, and breaking their own made up rules (no supreme court nominees during the lame duck session unless nominated by a Republican) your characterization is uncalled for.
- immibis 2y ago
  Yes, the right have been doing it for a long time and it works. Either make it stop working, or copy the thing that works. Don't just handicap yourself to a guaranteed loss.
  - ElevenLathe 2y ago
    Nothing in the rulebook says a {dog,Democrat} can't {play basketball,appoint liberal judges}.
    - immibis 2y ago
      But they don't.
    - thyrsus 2y ago
      Tell that to Merrick Garland and Mitch McConnell.
- ElevenLathe 2y ago
  The rules are that the executive can appoint judges. Right wing executives take advantage of this rule. Doing the same from the other corner seems reasonable too. The failure to do so means that the Democratic party is incompetent, uninterested in enacting their own alleged policies, or some combination of the two. Some people say "if you're not cheating, you're not trying" but this is even a level removed. This is a perfectly legal move that they've denied themselves for no material reason.
mistrial9 2y ago
superficially this argument seems reasonable.. but my limited understanding of the history of the Supreme Court of the United States says that there have been substantially different eras, and substantially different rules in those eras, for this same Federal body. Needless to say, in a "two party" political system, the details of what each of those two parties represents has also changed dramatically.. i.e. what is called conservative has changed quite a lot, many times.. same with "liberal"
mschuster91 2y ago
[flagged]
- immibis 2y ago
  Indeed they have already done so - many left-wing voters are swearing off voting for Biden, over his support for the Gaza genocide. This guarantees a Trump victory.
- ElevenLathe 2y ago
  The issue is that the "ethics and morals" of the powerful are in reality weapons pointed at working people. If using state power gained through elections to improve the lives of the people who elected you is immoral or unethical, your system of ethics is a farce.
wongarsu 2y ago
Appointing people based on party loyalty is always cited as one of the major reason the Soviet Union became a slow-motion train wreck. It's not something America should emulate. Not to mention that packing the courts could well be interpreted as an open attack against the separation of powers

hypothesis 2y ago

> Everyone fantasizes about government by an unelected group of experts, until they wake up one day and find out those unelected experts don't share their values at all -- and there's nothing they can do about it. Does SCOTUS fit into this hypothetical?

db48x 2y ago
No, because they neither make laws nor execute them.

digging 2y ago

This implies the common false dichotomy though that public officials can only be either: elected in toxic, wasteful campaign cycles every 4 years; or completely independent of public oversight. Those aren't the only two mechanisms that exist to develop an administrative apparatus. They are actually two points on a spectrum, and in fact closer to being at either end of the spectrum. One, quick example: You can have appointed experts who can be recalled by public input but never have to campaign for election. I'm writing this in short minutes with zero research so be assured there are countless possible systems that exist in the infinite space between the two binary options implied by your dilemma. In other words, being elected to office is not the advantage of congress. The advantage we seek is public accountability. Public elections are a pretty fucking poor proxy for accountability though because we end up with single-issue voters acting out of rage and electing people who are specifically inept at their job.