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The current truck market in the USA is a good example of how the "free market" works first and foremost to maximize profit --- not to the benefit and often to t

The current truck market in the USA is a good example of how the "free market" works first and foremost to maximize profit --- not to the benefit and often to the detriment of consumers. The monstrosities currently being sold are completely divorced from the purpose a "truck" used to serve. These mini trucks are the response.

skidd0 2y ago
And this Kei Truck response is a good example of how a market (free or not), while seeking to find all profits, uncovers an unmet need in the market and adapts for the mutual benefit of the consumers And the producers.
- lmpdev 2y ago
  I mean not really since they are imported used vehicles from Japan These trucks are illegal to sell new in the states Japanese producers aren’t designing these vehicles with American second hand JDM import buyers in mind Kei-truck manufacturers make no profit off this US uptick and consumers are at best irritated and at worst paying import fees because their domestic producers refuse to meet their needs and force them to cough up more cash for a vacuously useful and environmentally harmful oversized utility vehicles Markets can work, this is a clear example of it breaking down (for the US) and a sign the government should step in to steer the - arguably flailing - market
  - skidd0 2y ago
    You're suggesting government step in and stop the market from adapting around existing regulation? But that's how we got where we are right now. If government weren't in the way we'd have even more happy buyers. You point out US consumers might be annoyed at bad local options and are looking elsewhere then suggest that this is a failure of the market when in fact it is this market action that permits the consumer to find a better solution for their problems. All government can do if they "step in" is make this even harder. You cannot Force a market.
    - infecto 2y ago
      You are making it sound like the Kei market makes more than just a very very tiny portion of total sold trucks in the US. Its not, it is very much a niche market.
      - skidd0 2y ago
        And yet we're discussing the phenomenon online and arguing about it on our niche platform..
        infecto 2y ago
        > And yet we're discussing the phenomenon online and arguing about it on our niche platform.. What is your point? I am simply stating that you are overstating the actual market share of this demand. I don't disagree, modern trucks are comically too large but Kei trucks are not a response to it.
        skidd0 2y ago
        I don't think I stated the size or proportions of the market.
      - weberer 2y ago
        To be clear, the small number is the amount of people who are willing to jump through hoops and legal loopholes to actually import one. The actual number of people who would chose one of these over a Ford at their local dealer is likely orders of magnitude higher.
        infecto 2y ago
        To be clear you are completely materializing that without any data. The data we do have are import numbers. You say it’s a lot of hoops but looks like you can buy one of these sub 10k from an importer. No hoops and in a reasonable price point. Supply and import demand paints the picture.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  The Kei trucks are a less than ideal, last ditch response to a market that had failed a lot of consumers. Look for those profiting from the status quo to do everything possible outside of the market to stop it.
  - skidd0 2y ago
    You find this everywhere there is a centralized "authority". Incumbants use every trick to keep their tribe in power at the expense of what that central power was nominally "supposed to do". The purpose of the system is what it does. The purpose of seemingly all regulatory institutions is to gain and maintain power for the tribe in power.
mytailorisrich 2y ago
Consumers are not victims, they are driving the market. The truck market is what it is because over time consumers have favoured a certain type of trucks when given the choice. If people picked the smaller truck at the dealership when shown the options trucks would look differently today.
- smegger001 2y ago
  Exsept its not that simple, due to poorly conceived emmisons law (one.exempting larger vehicles from the standard) and an unfortunate tariff (see chicken tax) its better for the manufacturer to make ever larger vehicles to use the "small truck" loophole. Its hard to signal a size preference when they are all behemoths due to engineers finding a way to exploit the regulations by making the all cheaper when they are huge.
  - mytailorisrich 2y ago
    It is that simple. There is no market pressure to be small, quite the opposite, so that's what happens. They keep getting bigger because, again, consumers tend to choose the bigger option. Regulations do not push for ever bigger trucks, they may have thresholds so at most they might favour a minimum size but after that it's up to the market. My understanding is that the rules for light trucks date from the 70s, which I'm sure means that trucks could be much smaller and still use that "loophole".
    - smegger001 2y ago
      Exsept do to CAFE emissions standards there is a selection presure removing small trucks before market pressure can influence anything. So so one buys small trucks because there aren't any so people that just need a truck buy are large one as there are no new small truck in the market so sales numbers of large truck go up so more are made because large truck sales are up and viscous cycle continues untilled it gets so bad people who just want a small truck start importing used decades old kie trucks from Japan because regulations have distorted the local market. If it was functioning properly no one would go to all the effort as that is a signal of high unmet demand.
Dalewyn 2y ago
Kei trucks are a very nice complement to a bigger truck, but they do not and can not replace them and the latter very much have practical reasons to exist.
infecto 2y ago
Kei trucks are still nothing but a blip from a very niche market. No business outside of an owner operated business will be using these. The consumer market just finds them fun an interesting. They certainly have a nice price point but are largely for very local use as most of them cannot reach highway speeds, though I am not sure I would want to take one on a US highway. "Ford F-Series expanded its lead in 2023, on sales of 750,789". "Last year (2023), more than 7,500 Kei trucks were imported to the U.S. from Japan." So the imported amount (not sold to consumer necessarily) is still less than 1% of the total market. Napkin math with chevy at 200k and capping it at 1mm for total.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  These Kei trucks are a less than ideal, last ditch response to a market that has failed a lot of consumers. The number being imported by highly motivated individuals is only a small fraction of the extent of this failure.
  - infecto 2y ago
    No it is not. They conservatively represent less than 1% of new trucks sold. "small indicator of the extent of this failure" that is just a projection of what you think it is. I don't disagree modern trucks are comically large and starting prices are too high, lets look towards poor federal regulations that helped get us to these large trucks before talking about market failure.
thworp 2y ago
The main reason they became so gigantic is regulation. First, since "heavy-duty" vehicles are subject to less regulation, crew cabs demand soared (much cheaper than a regular car with similar room). Then, during Obamas presidency, fuel consumption standards were based on wheelbase and tread width. This meant that larger trucks had to be less fuel efficient, which meant they were cheaper. If all vehicles were subject to the same regulations the size increases would have been in line with normal cars. If there was a lot less regulation and people weren't demanding so many gimmicks, you could probably get a very basic work truck, about as big as a Hiluxe, for $5k.
neither_color 2y ago
For half a century, a litany of federal policies has favored large SUVs and trucks, pushing automakers and American buyers toward larger models. Instead of counteracting car bloat through regulation, policymakers have subtly encouraged it. That has been a boon for car companies, but a disaster for everyone else. It's not that simple. Regulations are at least partially, if not primarily to blame for car bloat. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/24139147/suvs-trucks-popularity-federal-policy-pollution https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/24139147/suvs-trucks-popu...
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  good article. glad to see they called out the Chicken Tax
weberer 2y ago
People obviously want light weight trucks, but govenment regulations prevent them from being sold in the US. This is a great example of how the market is non-free. Blaming the "free market" is completely backwards.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  The primary reason that "light weight trucks" aren't available in the US market --- is because selling oversized monstrosities is way more profitable.
pushcx 2y ago
The current truck market, including SUVs and the absence of keis, is strongly shaped by the Chicken Tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
silverquiet 2y ago
The Ford Maverick seems like it would really nicely fill the niche? My college actually used a few Kei trucks for the maintenance people years ago. I assume they could get them new(ish?) because they weren't used on road. They always seemed perfect for the job, and I have seen them around in other roles like that, but I only recently saw one on-road. I get the appeal, but I'd take a Maverick over one every time.
- jqpabc123 2y ago
  I'd take a Maverick over one every time. Yes, a Maverick is a much more versatile vehicle for the US market; however, try finding one. Ford has a marketplace dilemma. They know they could sell lots of these but they really don't want to make them. They would much rather make/sell a big honkin' monstrosity that very few buyers actually need --- because $$$.
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    Yes, I'm not really in the market for a vehicle, so I'm not aware of what's really available. But I'd think anyone can make something like a Maverick; in fact, I'd rather buy something like that from Toyota or Honda. You'd think that if Ford has proven the demand, others might get in and accept a little less margin - that's what economics would suggest after all.
  - jabart 2y ago
    They likely have a capacity issue. The same plant that makes Broncos (huge sellers) also make the Mavericks which added a third shift in 2023. Some Ford plants already run three shifts, Kentucky Truck plant did for the longest of times. I think Ford has one entire factory dedicated to F150s. Ford has two weeks a year to add a new model to a factory, car manufacturing is very inelastic.
    - red-iron-pine 2y ago
      Worth noting that Broncos are basically just the SUV version of the Maverick; same chassis. Pretty common for a lot of truck-SUV builds, like how the Toyota 4Runner is bascially just an enclosed Tacoma; essentially a Hilux-based SUV

skidd0 2y ago

And this Kei Truck response is a good example of how a market (free or not), while seeking to find all profits, uncovers an unmet need in the market and adapts for the mutual benefit of the consumers And the producers.

lmpdev 2y ago
I mean not really since they are imported used vehicles from Japan These trucks are illegal to sell new in the states Japanese producers aren’t designing these vehicles with American second hand JDM import buyers in mind Kei-truck manufacturers make no profit off this US uptick and consumers are at best irritated and at worst paying import fees because their domestic producers refuse to meet their needs and force them to cough up more cash for a vacuously useful and environmentally harmful oversized utility vehicles Markets can work, this is a clear example of it breaking down (for the US) and a sign the government should step in to steer the - arguably flailing - market
- skidd0 2y ago
  You're suggesting government step in and stop the market from adapting around existing regulation? But that's how we got where we are right now. If government weren't in the way we'd have even more happy buyers. You point out US consumers might be annoyed at bad local options and are looking elsewhere then suggest that this is a failure of the market when in fact it is this market action that permits the consumer to find a better solution for their problems. All government can do if they "step in" is make this even harder. You cannot Force a market.
  - infecto 2y ago
    You are making it sound like the Kei market makes more than just a very very tiny portion of total sold trucks in the US. Its not, it is very much a niche market.
    - skidd0 2y ago
      And yet we're discussing the phenomenon online and arguing about it on our niche platform..
      - infecto 2y ago
        > And yet we're discussing the phenomenon online and arguing about it on our niche platform.. What is your point? I am simply stating that you are overstating the actual market share of this demand. I don't disagree, modern trucks are comically too large but Kei trucks are not a response to it.
        skidd0 2y ago
        I don't think I stated the size or proportions of the market.
    - weberer 2y ago
      To be clear, the small number is the amount of people who are willing to jump through hoops and legal loopholes to actually import one. The actual number of people who would chose one of these over a Ford at their local dealer is likely orders of magnitude higher.
      - infecto 2y ago
        To be clear you are completely materializing that without any data. The data we do have are import numbers. You say it’s a lot of hoops but looks like you can buy one of these sub 10k from an importer. No hoops and in a reasonable price point. Supply and import demand paints the picture.
jqpabc123 2y ago
The Kei trucks are a less than ideal, last ditch response to a market that had failed a lot of consumers. Look for those profiting from the status quo to do everything possible outside of the market to stop it.
- skidd0 2y ago
  You find this everywhere there is a centralized "authority". Incumbants use every trick to keep their tribe in power at the expense of what that central power was nominally "supposed to do". The purpose of the system is what it does. The purpose of seemingly all regulatory institutions is to gain and maintain power for the tribe in power.

mytailorisrich 2y ago

Consumers are not victims, they are driving the market. The truck market is what it is because over time consumers have favoured a certain type of trucks when given the choice. If people picked the smaller truck at the dealership when shown the options trucks would look differently today.

smegger001 2y ago
Exsept its not that simple, due to poorly conceived emmisons law (one.exempting larger vehicles from the standard) and an unfortunate tariff (see chicken tax) its better for the manufacturer to make ever larger vehicles to use the "small truck" loophole. Its hard to signal a size preference when they are all behemoths due to engineers finding a way to exploit the regulations by making the all cheaper when they are huge.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  It is that simple. There is no market pressure to be small, quite the opposite, so that's what happens. They keep getting bigger because, again, consumers tend to choose the bigger option. Regulations do not push for ever bigger trucks, they may have thresholds so at most they might favour a minimum size but after that it's up to the market. My understanding is that the rules for light trucks date from the 70s, which I'm sure means that trucks could be much smaller and still use that "loophole".
  - smegger001 2y ago
    Exsept do to CAFE emissions standards there is a selection presure removing small trucks before market pressure can influence anything. So so one buys small trucks because there aren't any so people that just need a truck buy are large one as there are no new small truck in the market so sales numbers of large truck go up so more are made because large truck sales are up and viscous cycle continues untilled it gets so bad people who just want a small truck start importing used decades old kie trucks from Japan because regulations have distorted the local market. If it was functioning properly no one would go to all the effort as that is a signal of high unmet demand.

Dalewyn 2y ago

Kei trucks are a very nice complement to a bigger truck, but they do not and can not replace them and the latter very much have practical reasons to exist.

infecto 2y ago

Kei trucks are still nothing but a blip from a very niche market. No business outside of an owner operated business will be using these. The consumer market just finds them fun an interesting. They certainly have a nice price point but are largely for very local use as most of them cannot reach highway speeds, though I am not sure I would want to take one on a US highway. "Ford F-Series expanded its lead in 2023, on sales of 750,789". "Last year (2023), more than 7,500 Kei trucks were imported to the U.S. from Japan." So the imported amount (not sold to consumer necessarily) is still less than 1% of the total market. Napkin math with chevy at 200k and capping it at 1mm for total.

jqpabc123 2y ago
These Kei trucks are a less than ideal, last ditch response to a market that has failed a lot of consumers. The number being imported by highly motivated individuals is only a small fraction of the extent of this failure.
- infecto 2y ago
  No it is not. They conservatively represent less than 1% of new trucks sold. "small indicator of the extent of this failure" that is just a projection of what you think it is. I don't disagree modern trucks are comically large and starting prices are too high, lets look towards poor federal regulations that helped get us to these large trucks before talking about market failure.

thworp 2y ago

The main reason they became so gigantic is regulation. First, since "heavy-duty" vehicles are subject to less regulation, crew cabs demand soared (much cheaper than a regular car with similar room). Then, during Obamas presidency, fuel consumption standards were based on wheelbase and tread width. This meant that larger trucks had to be less fuel efficient, which meant they were cheaper. If all vehicles were subject to the same regulations the size increases would have been in line with normal cars. If there was a lot less regulation and people weren't demanding so many gimmicks, you could probably get a very basic work truck, about as big as a Hiluxe, for $5k.

neither_color 2y ago

For half a century, a litany of federal policies has favored large SUVs and trucks, pushing automakers and American buyers toward larger models. Instead of counteracting car bloat through regulation, policymakers have subtly encouraged it. That has been a boon for car companies, but a disaster for everyone else. It's not that simple. Regulations are at least partially, if not primarily to blame for car bloat. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/24139147/suvs-trucks-popularity-federal-policy-pollution https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/24139147/suvs-trucks-popu...

red-iron-pine 2y ago
good article. glad to see they called out the Chicken Tax

weberer 2y ago

People obviously want light weight trucks, but govenment regulations prevent them from being sold in the US. This is a great example of how the market is non-free. Blaming the "free market" is completely backwards.

jqpabc123 2y ago
The primary reason that "light weight trucks" aren't available in the US market --- is because selling oversized monstrosities is way more profitable.

pushcx 2y ago

The current truck market, including SUVs and the absence of keis, is strongly shaped by the Chicken Tax: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

silverquiet 2y ago

The Ford Maverick seems like it would really nicely fill the niche? My college actually used a few Kei trucks for the maintenance people years ago. I assume they could get them new(ish?) because they weren't used on road. They always seemed perfect for the job, and I have seen them around in other roles like that, but I only recently saw one on-road. I get the appeal, but I'd take a Maverick over one every time.

jqpabc123 2y ago
I'd take a Maverick over one every time. Yes, a Maverick is a much more versatile vehicle for the US market; however, try finding one. Ford has a marketplace dilemma. They know they could sell lots of these but they really don't want to make them. They would much rather make/sell a big honkin' monstrosity that very few buyers actually need --- because $$$.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  Yes, I'm not really in the market for a vehicle, so I'm not aware of what's really available. But I'd think anyone can make something like a Maverick; in fact, I'd rather buy something like that from Toyota or Honda. You'd think that if Ford has proven the demand, others might get in and accept a little less margin - that's what economics would suggest after all.
- jabart 2y ago
  They likely have a capacity issue. The same plant that makes Broncos (huge sellers) also make the Mavericks which added a third shift in 2023. Some Ford plants already run three shifts, Kentucky Truck plant did for the longest of times. I think Ford has one entire factory dedicated to F150s. Ford has two weeks a year to add a new model to a factory, car manufacturing is very inelastic.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    Worth noting that Broncos are basically just the SUV version of the Maverick; same chassis. Pretty common for a lot of truck-SUV builds, like how the Toyota 4Runner is bascially just an enclosed Tacoma; essentially a Hilux-based SUV