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I think this because that's what it is. It has played out in other cities, there is only one way for it to play out. It's okay if you disagree with the facts,
by seoulmetro 2y ago
I think this because that's what it is.
It has played out in other cities, there is only one way for it to play out.
It's okay if you disagree with the facts, but it's fairly easy to understand how pricing people out is a poor attempt at a solution, but solves the problem by brute force anyway.
>where the (reasonable) argument is that the transportation system is more than sufficient and the traffic, noise, and tailpipe emissions of your car do more harm to local residents than they fairly benefit you.
Yes. I never said that less cars is not beneficial. I understand this, that's why I said what I said.
There's no such thing as "fairly benefiting from other residents"...
You're still not solving the problem by slapping a $ figure to the entrance of cars. It's just a lazy and bad solution.
- frereubu 2y agoIt is a bit of a blunt instrument, but presuming you agree that it's a problem that needs to be solved, what other alternative would you suggest?
- seoulmetro 2y agoNot doing that? I'm not here to give alternative solutions, I'm here to tell you the current solution is slightly worse than nothing. You would have to make the solution fairly complex for it to be beneficial. But I'd start with quantifying why people are in the city, rather than treating them all the same. If it were my job, I'd have a better solution than congestion charges, that's for damn sure.
- portaouflop 2y agoIf it were your job you would think differently because you knew all the facts, constraints and trade offs. Contrary to popular belief most people make reasonable decisions and want to do a good job
- enriquec 2y agocorruption and incompetence exist.
- CalRobert 2y agoGiven your username one might hope "implement a world class public transport system" or better yet "convert an urban highway into a beautiful linear park and waterway" (like Seoul) would come to mind.
- seoulmetro 2y agoYes. Except I don't believe they're capable of that... >"convert an urban highway into a beautiful linear park and waterway" They converted an inner urban highway and other highways in the sky (in the immediate city centre) to walking paths while adding extra highways to the pool further out from the city centre. Removing the inner highways added to congestion, adding the outer highways reduced congestion. They did not add congestion charges and the city handles it fine. They are not stupid like a lot of people here are.
- CalRobert 2y agoYou make some valid points, but calling us stupid is incredibly rude and undermines everything you say. It also runs afoul of HN guidelines.
- seoulmetro 2y agoSorry I wasn't calling you stupid. I said there were a lot of stupid people here. You may or may not be stupid. I don't know. Do you have anything to reply? I think you're running afoul of guidelines too.
- enriquec 2y agoyou're right but judgmental statists get high off the feeling of control and "fairness" - effectiveness be damned. I thought we absolutely needed the government and taxes for the roads because paying for use would be so "unfair" and "hard" - oh wait, now they want to control what you do because they like bikes so its totally reasonable. Hard to find more statists than in New York
- intended 2y agoClear accurate pricing is how people decide what to do with their resources. Pricing things correctly is basically the reason we have a modern economy. Externalities are one of the thornier issues and making those prices clear to people is how we get people to decide whether they actually want to pay the full price of a good or service.
- seoulmetro 2y agoSo you don't believe in welfare? Because they circumvent "accurate pricing".
- enriquec 2y agoits artificial pricing by definition
- intended 2y agoBy that criteria Any price that includes some tax would be artificial. I suppose libertarians would be happy. Artificial, organic, lab grown or otherwise - does the price of a good or service capture the cost of its production.
- CalRobert 2y ago"Poor people" or rather "people who actually need to drive in this particular moment"? It's really nice to be able to pay for better facilities _when you need them_. The person who is late for a flight or a job interview, or who just found out their kid got hurt at school and is heading to the hospital, benefits massively from congestion pricing. They have the ability to access faster transportation when they need it, and to choose the slower alternative when they don't.
- seoulmetro 2y agoSo you're hurting everyone for the minor few? I've heard this before and it's still very bad planning. You can create bus and emergency lanes you know, with less detriment.
- immibis 2y agoIt's nice to be able to pay for better facilities. It's even nicer if they are just better, without paying. Payment can create perverse incentives as well.
- CalRobert 2y agoYes, magic definitely is nicer than dealing with actual constraints.
- paulgb 2y agoThe thing about congestion is that you can't “make it better” (in a densely populated place like Manhattan's CBD) without removing cars somehow. The only other real approach to this is rationing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_space_rationing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_space_rationing), which leads to economic inefficiencies and doesn't raise money that will be used to make transit better for everyone who choses not to drive.
- Retric 2y agoIt’s impossible for free city streets to both be fast and scale to the density of NYC. Congestion pricing allows them to be fast by removing traffic. Thus allowing busses or people with significant need to travel quickly. Where it fails is an Uber/taxi drivers add a lot more congestion than an average person and the fees don’t get adjusted for this issue.
- alistairSH 2y agopricing people out is a poor attempt at a solution No, it's a good solution to negative externalities. In the status quo, drivers do not bear the full cost of driving (noise, pollution, opportunity cost of time lost in traffic). Congestion pricing address that by imposting a fee equal to the societal cost of those externalities.
- seoulmetro 2y agoGrocery shoppers don't either. What's your point? Do we charge people to enter the grocery store, or if they buy too much? It's not a good solution in any sense of the word. There are reasons we don't charge for some things. Do you charge people extra who use their entire bin on bin day? It's weird how many people here are not smart enough to realise how backwards this solution is.