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The article vastly underplays how mismanaged the MTA is and how poorly the subway is run on a massive budget. It is one of the last organizations that should be

The article vastly underplays how mismanaged the MTA is and how poorly the subway is run on a massive budget. It is one of the last organizations that should be receiving this level of additional revenue, regardless of any sunk costs that have been put towards congestion pricing. This whole thing has been a mess for years so why double down on it when it would punish a set of residents and commuters and have very little chance of improving things for riders?

leetcrew 2y ago
idk, I honestly think congestion pricing would still be a good idea even if they just lit all the toll proceeds on fire. I almost wonder if it was a political blunder to couple "reduce cars in lower manhatten" with "more funding for MTA" in the first place.
- walterbell 2y ago
  Congestion pricing has little impact on the unlimited number of cars (unlike regulated taxis) that can enter Manhattan and drive around for hours for Uber/Lyft.
  - leetcrew 2y ago
    I haven't yet chosen a side in the great uber vs taxi debate. but in general, driving lots of different people around all day sounds like a pretty good use of a car. it would be great to have a more comprehensive approach for pricing the least productive vehicle uses out of the most congested areas, but setting up tolls in a few choke points is a good start.
    - walterbell 2y ago
      > driving lots of different people around all day Perhaps academics or NYC can analyze and publish data from Uber/Lyft on average rideshare occupancy by time of day and GPS location, e.g. what percentage of time is spent driving around empty (consuming energy, polluting), carrying a paid passenger, or parked in an area close to expected customers.
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    Sure it does, if they enter and leave the CBD. Cars coming and going from the UES and UWS, for example, would be subject to the charge. (But at the same time: I don't think anybody has claimed that it's a panacea. Congestion pricing can be both good policy and still have gaps.)
    - walterbell 2y ago
      > still have gaps There's always the opportunity for street/sector level surveillance via automated license plate readers. Your favorite neighborhood or street has too many cars? Impose quotas, vary the quota by time/season that only a computer can decipher, then sell "Fast Pass" exceptions to generate more revenue. Win for neo-feudal middleman, without brand licensing fees for the "environment" that justified a new digital on-demand toll economy.
      - woodruffw 2y ago
        I don’t understand what this has to do with congestion pricing, which AFAICT had a very simple (arguably too simple, per complaints about charging blue collar workers) fare schedule. (I also don’t think anybody would describe Manhattan’s CBD as their favorite neighborhood.)
        walterbell 2y ago
        > what this has to do with congestion pricing Try a web search for geo-fencing, which is closely coupled to modern technology for enforcement of geo boundaries that are not gated by a physical barrier. Manhattan Central Business District (CBD) is defined as "Manhattan south of and inclusive of 60th St" excluding some through-traffic highways. > don't think anybody would described Manhattan’s CBD as their favorite neighborhood It includes neighborhoods such as these, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manhattan_neighborhoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manhattan_neighborhood... Chelsea Chinatown Flatiron Greenwich Village Koreatown Little Italy Lower East Side NoLita SoHo Tribeca
  - Arainach 2y ago
    Source? It absolutely has impact, as shown in other cities which have implemented congestion pricing.
    - walterbell 2y ago
      Impact on Uber/Lyft drivers?
  - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
    Rideshares were capped in 2018. Only EVs are exempt from the limit.
    - walterbell 2y ago
      Thanks. Do you know how the limit is enforced?
      - paulgb 2y ago
        Uber/Lyft drivers in NYC need special plates (that start with a "T"). The commission that regulates them can simply restrict how many plates it issues/renews.
  - paulgb 2y ago
    Unlike in other cities, Uber/Lyft in NYC are regulated like taxis and limos. NYC has been paying a congestion surcharge on each ride since 2019, which was set to go up as part of the new congestion pricing program.
slt2021 2y ago
Agree, MTA must go bankrupt and restructure its liabilities, contracts, and overall cost structure to start from clean slate. Only after thorough and deep cleanup it would gain taxpayer trust and be on a get-well plan to be more sustainable financially. It would still operate in maintenance mode in the interim, while going through restructuring, NYC has no lack of financial restructuring professionals in downtown
- katbyte 2y ago
  You can’t start from a clean slate with so much legacy infrastructure
  - teractiveodular 2y ago
    You actually can: not the infra of course, but the operating organization. In Melbourne, Australia, the state-run Public Transport Corporation was an MTA-style mess and the trains in particular were notorious for delays. In 2009, the operating contract was handed over to the company behind the Hong Kong Metro, and punctuality has ratcheted up from the low 80s to the mid-90s; not quite HK-style 99%, but still a marked improvement, all on the same crusty old infra. https://www.metrotrains.com.au/metro-performance/ https://www.metrotrains.com.au/metro-performance/
  - slt2021 2y ago
    Its not about dismantling infrastruture, its about dismantling legal and contractual obstacles that keep MTA a financial disaster and corruption pit
- asah 2y ago
  You misunderstand the power of organized labor, the oligopoly of skilled labor able to maintain and adapt the legacy infrastructure and the shocking cost of bespoke manufacturing. I'm on the boards of two Manhattan buildings and see the numbers and can't even imagine what MTA goes through.
  - slt2021 2y ago
lmm 2y ago
The MTA might be badly run by subway standards but it still gives you a lot more bang for your buck than roads in NY, once you include the market-rate cost of the space that those roads take up.
- josephcsible 2y ago
  > once you include the market-rate cost of the space that those roads take up That's like saying that since land closer to Central Park is worth more than land further away, that we should demolish Central Park and replace it with more apartments. Property in NYC would be worthless if there weren't roads you could use to reach it.
  - katbyte 2y ago
    If there wasn’t the MTA and subway the roads would be so congested as to be useless and New York couldn’t only support a fraction of its density
  - lmm 2y ago
    > Property in NYC would be worthless if there weren't roads you could use to reach it. Most of the people who go to Manhattan get there by subway, bus, bike or walking (especially the people who have to work for a living), at a fraction of the space cost of those using cars. Access to property is certainly an important part of making that property valuable (hence why property around stations is worth more), but Manhattan spends far too much (in space) on roads for the amount of access throughput it gets in return.
- scrubs 2y ago
  Agree - only today I complained about the nyc subway on hn. But a car? Parking it? Tolls? Insurance? To drive around in traffic going no where fast? You're daydreaming. Taxi/Uber when needed and subway the other 90%. I'm two blocks from the subway with coffee and a diner on the way there. Man, it's awesome. I'm annoyed def some days more than others at the mta, but this is a no-brainer. Gd it America! Not everything can be low cost now/today and have long term soundness ... there are too many cars polluting too much in too small of an area going nowhere fast. As a would be business operator of the city, I damn near have a moral imperative to make some cash on that imbalance. I've spent many a $25 going 2 miles or less (say when raining) in a yellow cab. I always feel half stupid for paying it given how slow it is to move two lousy miles.

leetcrew 2y ago

idk, I honestly think congestion pricing would still be a good idea even if they just lit all the toll proceeds on fire. I almost wonder if it was a political blunder to couple "reduce cars in lower manhatten" with "more funding for MTA" in the first place.

walterbell 2y ago
Congestion pricing has little impact on the unlimited number of cars (unlike regulated taxis) that can enter Manhattan and drive around for hours for Uber/Lyft.
- leetcrew 2y ago
  I haven't yet chosen a side in the great uber vs taxi debate. but in general, driving lots of different people around all day sounds like a pretty good use of a car. it would be great to have a more comprehensive approach for pricing the least productive vehicle uses out of the most congested areas, but setting up tolls in a few choke points is a good start.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    > driving lots of different people around all day Perhaps academics or NYC can analyze and publish data from Uber/Lyft on average rideshare occupancy by time of day and GPS location, e.g. what percentage of time is spent driving around empty (consuming energy, polluting), carrying a paid passenger, or parked in an area close to expected customers.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  Sure it does, if they enter and leave the CBD. Cars coming and going from the UES and UWS, for example, would be subject to the charge. (But at the same time: I don't think anybody has claimed that it's a panacea. Congestion pricing can be both good policy and still have gaps.)
  - walterbell 2y ago
    > still have gaps There's always the opportunity for street/sector level surveillance via automated license plate readers. Your favorite neighborhood or street has too many cars? Impose quotas, vary the quota by time/season that only a computer can decipher, then sell "Fast Pass" exceptions to generate more revenue. Win for neo-feudal middleman, without brand licensing fees for the "environment" that justified a new digital on-demand toll economy.
    - woodruffw 2y ago
      I don’t understand what this has to do with congestion pricing, which AFAICT had a very simple (arguably too simple, per complaints about charging blue collar workers) fare schedule. (I also don’t think anybody would describe Manhattan’s CBD as their favorite neighborhood.)
      - walterbell 2y ago
        > what this has to do with congestion pricing Try a web search for geo-fencing, which is closely coupled to modern technology for enforcement of geo boundaries that are not gated by a physical barrier. Manhattan Central Business District (CBD) is defined as "Manhattan south of and inclusive of 60th St" excluding some through-traffic highways. > don't think anybody would described Manhattan’s CBD as their favorite neighborhood It includes neighborhoods such as these, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manhattan_neighborhoods https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manhattan_neighborhood... Chelsea Chinatown Flatiron Greenwich Village Koreatown Little Italy Lower East Side NoLita SoHo Tribeca
- Arainach 2y ago
  Source? It absolutely has impact, as shown in other cities which have implemented congestion pricing.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Impact on Uber/Lyft drivers?
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  Rideshares were capped in 2018. Only EVs are exempt from the limit.
  - walterbell 2y ago
    Thanks. Do you know how the limit is enforced?
    - paulgb 2y ago
      Uber/Lyft drivers in NYC need special plates (that start with a "T"). The commission that regulates them can simply restrict how many plates it issues/renews.
- paulgb 2y ago
  Unlike in other cities, Uber/Lyft in NYC are regulated like taxis and limos. NYC has been paying a congestion surcharge on each ride since 2019, which was set to go up as part of the new congestion pricing program.

slt2021 2y ago

Agree, MTA must go bankrupt and restructure its liabilities, contracts, and overall cost structure to start from clean slate. Only after thorough and deep cleanup it would gain taxpayer trust and be on a get-well plan to be more sustainable financially. It would still operate in maintenance mode in the interim, while going through restructuring, NYC has no lack of financial restructuring professionals in downtown

katbyte 2y ago
You can’t start from a clean slate with so much legacy infrastructure
- teractiveodular 2y ago
  You actually can: not the infra of course, but the operating organization. In Melbourne, Australia, the state-run Public Transport Corporation was an MTA-style mess and the trains in particular were notorious for delays. In 2009, the operating contract was handed over to the company behind the Hong Kong Metro, and punctuality has ratcheted up from the low 80s to the mid-90s; not quite HK-style 99%, but still a marked improvement, all on the same crusty old infra. https://www.metrotrains.com.au/metro-performance/ https://www.metrotrains.com.au/metro-performance/
- slt2021 2y ago
  Its not about dismantling infrastruture, its about dismantling legal and contractual obstacles that keep MTA a financial disaster and corruption pit
asah 2y ago
You misunderstand the power of organized labor, the oligopoly of skilled labor able to maintain and adapt the legacy infrastructure and the shocking cost of bespoke manufacturing. I'm on the boards of two Manhattan buildings and see the numbers and can't even imagine what MTA goes through.
- slt2021 2y ago

lmm 2y ago

The MTA might be badly run by subway standards but it still gives you a lot more bang for your buck than roads in NY, once you include the market-rate cost of the space that those roads take up.

josephcsible 2y ago
> once you include the market-rate cost of the space that those roads take up That's like saying that since land closer to Central Park is worth more than land further away, that we should demolish Central Park and replace it with more apartments. Property in NYC would be worthless if there weren't roads you could use to reach it.
- katbyte 2y ago
  If there wasn’t the MTA and subway the roads would be so congested as to be useless and New York couldn’t only support a fraction of its density
- lmm 2y ago
  > Property in NYC would be worthless if there weren't roads you could use to reach it. Most of the people who go to Manhattan get there by subway, bus, bike or walking (especially the people who have to work for a living), at a fraction of the space cost of those using cars. Access to property is certainly an important part of making that property valuable (hence why property around stations is worth more), but Manhattan spends far too much (in space) on roads for the amount of access throughput it gets in return.
scrubs 2y ago
Agree - only today I complained about the nyc subway on hn. But a car? Parking it? Tolls? Insurance? To drive around in traffic going no where fast? You're daydreaming. Taxi/Uber when needed and subway the other 90%. I'm two blocks from the subway with coffee and a diner on the way there. Man, it's awesome. I'm annoyed def some days more than others at the mta, but this is a no-brainer. Gd it America! Not everything can be low cost now/today and have long term soundness ... there are too many cars polluting too much in too small of an area going nowhere fast. As a would be business operator of the city, I damn near have a moral imperative to make some cash on that imbalance. I've spent many a $25 going 2 miles or less (say when raining) in a yellow cab. I always feel half stupid for paying it given how slow it is to move two lousy miles.