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This hasn't played out in other cities, so I don't know why you think this. Notably, NYC congestion pricing does not affect the highways into the city: if you

This hasn't played out in other cities, so I don't know why you think this. Notably, NYC congestion pricing does not affect the highways into the city: if you take a highway into the city and stay on the highway, you won't be charged. The charge is only for entering the city grid, where the (reasonable) argument is that the transportation system is more than sufficient and the traffic, noise, and tailpipe emissions of your car do more harm to local residents than they fairly benefit you.

evanelias 2y ago
> if you take a highway into the city and stay on the highway, you won't be charged. The charge is only for entering the city grid That's technically true, but it ignores the fact that both the Lincoln Tunnel (495) and Holland Tunnel (78) require you to enter the city grid. With the way the congestion pricing was designed, if you take either of those tunnels, there's no way to avoid the congestion pricing fee -- this was confirmed multiple times in FAQs and Q+A's. I'm mostly in favor of congestion pricing, but I really think they need to figure out a better solution for that tunnel issue.
- detourdog 2y ago
  I think you should take either the Verrazano bridge exit off 95 or continue north to 87. The idea is to avoid driving through Manhattan planning one's trip accordingly should work. The only reason to take either tunnel is to reach Manhattan.
  - spyspy 2y ago
    I really wish there was a tunnel between jersey and Brooklyn. Every option sucks for that. You either end up stuck in traffic in Staten Island, manhattan, or queens.
    - pc86 2y ago
      I'm looking at a map and really confused about how from New Jersey you can end up in Queens while trying to get to Staten Island.
      - detourdog 2y ago
        Crossing the Verranzo Bridge and coninueing on the Brooklyn Queens expressway or 278.
        CryptoBanker 2y ago
        Ok, sure if you’re an idiot and you go past Brooklyn you could end up in Queens
      - selimthegrim 2y ago
        Starting in Ft. Lee?
        detourdog 2y ago
        going where?
    - detourdog 2y ago
      Remember when Chris Christie said a modern tunnel was not worth the cost to NJ?
  - evanelias 2y ago
    That's absolutely incorrect. Over a million NJ residents live closer to the tunnels, myself included. Every route I plan on google maps to various destinations in parts of Brooklyn and Queens puts the tunnels as being faster.
    - datameta 2y ago
      Right, that's part of the problem. During the work hours the temporary population of Manhattan grows about threefold. They contribute to immense gridlock and then disappear to their suburbs in another state. Why must the residents bear the brunt of the externalized traffic impact? It is only fair to treat available street space as a limited resource.
      - evanelias 2y ago
        That's tangential to the issue being discussed in this subthread, which is that there's physically no way to stay on highways when coming from the tunnels, even when attempting to reach non-Manhattan destinations in outer boroughs. So the only relevant congestion for this specific issue is between the tunnels and the highways. Manhattan residents living near the tunnels know what they're signing up for. The tunnels opened in 1927 and 1937. The traffic isn't exactly a new problem. Also, the parts of NJ in question (where the tunnels are closer than bridges) are largely urban in character. You make it sound like people are coming from some far-away leafy suburb, that's not the case for the majority of this population.
        detourdog 2y ago
        People in NJ know what they are signing up for. The outer boroughs have existed in the same locations for decades. Traveling by automobile through Manhattan isn't exactly a new problem.
        evanelias 2y ago
        Being charged $15 to travel literally two blocks between the tunnel and the West Side Highway is a new problem. That's the point. There's no way to avoid the city grid, due to bad highway design that doesn't directly connect either 495 or 78 with 9A. Any congestion pricing plan which ignores that problem is going to be met with mass outrage, to an extent that will swing elections against incumbents. Especially when said incumbents promote this "no charge if you stay on highways" BS without explaining the fine print. Again, I'm saying this as someone who only ever takes public transit and is generally in favor of congestion pricing as a concept.
- macNchz 2y ago
  A lot of really terrible congestion comes from people who are only passing through Manhattan on their way to/from other places, because the toll structure incentivizes that vs going around. I worked in the general vicinity of the Holland Tunnel entrance for years and it was miserable for basically all users of the streets every afternoon.
  - spyspy 2y ago
    Toll optimization aside, there’s often a huge backup of the BQE or in Staten Island that makes the tunnel the next best option. I’ve faced that scenario probably 1/3 of the time trying to visit family in PA/NJ from Brooklyn.
  - evanelias 2y ago
    > the toll structure incentivizes that vs going around How so? The toll rate is identical between the Lincoln Tunnel, the Holland tunnel, the George Washington Bridge, the Bayonne Bridge, the Goethals Bridge, and the Outerbridge Crossing: https://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/en/tolls.html https://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/en/tolls.html
    - macNchz 2y ago
      Well three of those involve a toll on the Verrazzano unless you're starting or ending your trip on Staten Island itself, whereas the East River bridges into Manhattan are free. The GWB can be done without a toll, but if you're shopping for a cheaper route to avoid the Verrazzano toll it's likely way out of your way. Ideally the toll structure should incentivize through traffic to stay on highways and out of the most gridlocked streets in the country, and I'm saying this as a longtime car owner in Brooklyn who has driven through the Holland Tunnel hundreds of times. Manhattan streets are a tragedy of the commons in action.
      - evanelias 2y ago
        Ah, I see, that makes sense. But even with congestion pricing, assuming a same-day round-trip with a non-NY EZ-Pass, the combined cost of (Holland or Lincoln Tunnel toll + congestion pricing toll) is still a bit less than the cost of (Goethals or Bayonne Bridge toll + Verrazzano Bridge toll)... because the Verrazzano charges in both directions. So even congestion pricing doesn't fix those incentives :/
seoulmetro 2y ago
I think this because that's what it is. It has played out in other cities, there is only one way for it to play out. It's okay if you disagree with the facts, but it's fairly easy to understand how pricing people out is a poor attempt at a solution, but solves the problem by brute force anyway. >where the (reasonable) argument is that the transportation system is more than sufficient and the traffic, noise, and tailpipe emissions of your car do more harm to local residents than they fairly benefit you. Yes. I never said that less cars is not beneficial. I understand this, that's why I said what I said. There's no such thing as "fairly benefiting from other residents"... You're still not solving the problem by slapping a $ figure to the entrance of cars. It's just a lazy and bad solution.
- frereubu 2y ago
  It is a bit of a blunt instrument, but presuming you agree that it's a problem that needs to be solved, what other alternative would you suggest?
  - seoulmetro 2y ago
    Not doing that? I'm not here to give alternative solutions, I'm here to tell you the current solution is slightly worse than nothing. You would have to make the solution fairly complex for it to be beneficial. But I'd start with quantifying why people are in the city, rather than treating them all the same. If it were my job, I'd have a better solution than congestion charges, that's for damn sure.
    - portaouflop 2y ago
      If it were your job you would think differently because you knew all the facts, constraints and trade offs. Contrary to popular belief most people make reasonable decisions and want to do a good job
      - enriquec 2y ago
        corruption and incompetence exist.

evanelias 2y ago

> if you take a highway into the city and stay on the highway, you won't be charged. The charge is only for entering the city grid That's technically true, but it ignores the fact that both the Lincoln Tunnel (495) and Holland Tunnel (78) require you to enter the city grid. With the way the congestion pricing was designed, if you take either of those tunnels, there's no way to avoid the congestion pricing fee -- this was confirmed multiple times in FAQs and Q+A's. I'm mostly in favor of congestion pricing, but I really think they need to figure out a better solution for that tunnel issue.

detourdog 2y ago
I think you should take either the Verrazano bridge exit off 95 or continue north to 87. The idea is to avoid driving through Manhattan planning one's trip accordingly should work. The only reason to take either tunnel is to reach Manhattan.
- spyspy 2y ago
  I really wish there was a tunnel between jersey and Brooklyn. Every option sucks for that. You either end up stuck in traffic in Staten Island, manhattan, or queens.
  - pc86 2y ago
    I'm looking at a map and really confused about how from New Jersey you can end up in Queens while trying to get to Staten Island.
    - detourdog 2y ago
      Crossing the Verranzo Bridge and coninueing on the Brooklyn Queens expressway or 278.
      - CryptoBanker 2y ago
        Ok, sure if you’re an idiot and you go past Brooklyn you could end up in Queens
    - selimthegrim 2y ago
      Starting in Ft. Lee?
      - detourdog 2y ago
        going where?
  - detourdog 2y ago
    Remember when Chris Christie said a modern tunnel was not worth the cost to NJ?
- evanelias 2y ago
  That's absolutely incorrect. Over a million NJ residents live closer to the tunnels, myself included. Every route I plan on google maps to various destinations in parts of Brooklyn and Queens puts the tunnels as being faster.
  - datameta 2y ago
    Right, that's part of the problem. During the work hours the temporary population of Manhattan grows about threefold. They contribute to immense gridlock and then disappear to their suburbs in another state. Why must the residents bear the brunt of the externalized traffic impact? It is only fair to treat available street space as a limited resource.
    - evanelias 2y ago
      That's tangential to the issue being discussed in this subthread, which is that there's physically no way to stay on highways when coming from the tunnels, even when attempting to reach non-Manhattan destinations in outer boroughs. So the only relevant congestion for this specific issue is between the tunnels and the highways. Manhattan residents living near the tunnels know what they're signing up for. The tunnels opened in 1927 and 1937. The traffic isn't exactly a new problem. Also, the parts of NJ in question (where the tunnels are closer than bridges) are largely urban in character. You make it sound like people are coming from some far-away leafy suburb, that's not the case for the majority of this population.
      - detourdog 2y ago
        People in NJ know what they are signing up for. The outer boroughs have existed in the same locations for decades. Traveling by automobile through Manhattan isn't exactly a new problem.
        evanelias 2y ago
        Being charged $15 to travel literally two blocks between the tunnel and the West Side Highway is a new problem. That's the point. There's no way to avoid the city grid, due to bad highway design that doesn't directly connect either 495 or 78 with 9A. Any congestion pricing plan which ignores that problem is going to be met with mass outrage, to an extent that will swing elections against incumbents. Especially when said incumbents promote this "no charge if you stay on highways" BS without explaining the fine print. Again, I'm saying this as someone who only ever takes public transit and is generally in favor of congestion pricing as a concept.
macNchz 2y ago
A lot of really terrible congestion comes from people who are only passing through Manhattan on their way to/from other places, because the toll structure incentivizes that vs going around. I worked in the general vicinity of the Holland Tunnel entrance for years and it was miserable for basically all users of the streets every afternoon.
- spyspy 2y ago
  Toll optimization aside, there’s often a huge backup of the BQE or in Staten Island that makes the tunnel the next best option. I’ve faced that scenario probably 1/3 of the time trying to visit family in PA/NJ from Brooklyn.
- evanelias 2y ago
  > the toll structure incentivizes that vs going around How so? The toll rate is identical between the Lincoln Tunnel, the Holland tunnel, the George Washington Bridge, the Bayonne Bridge, the Goethals Bridge, and the Outerbridge Crossing: https://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/en/tolls.html https://www.panynj.gov/bridges-tunnels/en/tolls.html
  - macNchz 2y ago
    Well three of those involve a toll on the Verrazzano unless you're starting or ending your trip on Staten Island itself, whereas the East River bridges into Manhattan are free. The GWB can be done without a toll, but if you're shopping for a cheaper route to avoid the Verrazzano toll it's likely way out of your way. Ideally the toll structure should incentivize through traffic to stay on highways and out of the most gridlocked streets in the country, and I'm saying this as a longtime car owner in Brooklyn who has driven through the Holland Tunnel hundreds of times. Manhattan streets are a tragedy of the commons in action.
    - evanelias 2y ago
      Ah, I see, that makes sense. But even with congestion pricing, assuming a same-day round-trip with a non-NY EZ-Pass, the combined cost of (Holland or Lincoln Tunnel toll + congestion pricing toll) is still a bit less than the cost of (Goethals or Bayonne Bridge toll + Verrazzano Bridge toll)... because the Verrazzano charges in both directions. So even congestion pricing doesn't fix those incentives :/

seoulmetro 2y ago

I think this because that's what it is. It has played out in other cities, there is only one way for it to play out. It's okay if you disagree with the facts, but it's fairly easy to understand how pricing people out is a poor attempt at a solution, but solves the problem by brute force anyway. >where the (reasonable) argument is that the transportation system is more than sufficient and the traffic, noise, and tailpipe emissions of your car do more harm to local residents than they fairly benefit you. Yes. I never said that less cars is not beneficial. I understand this, that's why I said what I said. There's no such thing as "fairly benefiting from other residents"... You're still not solving the problem by slapping a $ figure to the entrance of cars. It's just a lazy and bad solution.

frereubu 2y ago
It is a bit of a blunt instrument, but presuming you agree that it's a problem that needs to be solved, what other alternative would you suggest?
- seoulmetro 2y ago
  Not doing that? I'm not here to give alternative solutions, I'm here to tell you the current solution is slightly worse than nothing. You would have to make the solution fairly complex for it to be beneficial. But I'd start with quantifying why people are in the city, rather than treating them all the same. If it were my job, I'd have a better solution than congestion charges, that's for damn sure.
  - portaouflop 2y ago
    If it were your job you would think differently because you knew all the facts, constraints and trade offs. Contrary to popular belief most people make reasonable decisions and want to do a good job
    - enriquec 2y ago
      corruption and incompetence exist.