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MTA finances are unsustainable if they demand bailout and try to hide it under the label of "congestion pricing". If you look at what CP advocates say: it is a

by slt2021 2y ago

MTA finances are unsustainable if they demand bailout and try to hide it under the label of "congestion pricing". If you look at what CP advocates say: it is all about ecology, emissions, congestion, freeing up the road for cyclists, etc. Some people mention MTA capital projects and ADA compliance, etc. But no CP advocate has actually and honestly told the truth: MTA is underwater, its finances, collective bargaining agreement is unsustainable, fraud is rampant, without this extra tax they will simply go bankrupt. This is the clearest case of mismanagement and dishonest communication with the taxpayers. CP funding should go directly to the city, and any capital MTA funding should come from loans that are repayable (either via additional citywide tax/tolls/fares/City general fund/etc). You can't keep throwing good money after bad money into this financial black hole

woodruffw 2y ago
The congestion pricing fees were slated to go into capital programs, not operations. So that would be a very weird way for the MTA to attempt to hide their unsustainability, given that the money wouldn't be available for operational costs. I don't particularly disagree about the city deserving the money instead. But that would have to come with MTA giving NYCT back to the city, and that is unlikely to happen.
- slt2021 2y ago
  there is at least $2 bln hole due to loss of CP, even after excluding all capital projects and new equipment purchases. And equipment replacement is operational cost, it is not capital project, because in every organization part some part of budget msut be allocated for equipment replacement. " even if the MTA were to forego purchasing new subway cars, commuter rail locomotives and buses, the agency would still be $2 billion in the hole." https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/06/24/loss-of-congestion-pricing-toll-will-hit-mta-operational-budget-too-officials/ https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/06/24/loss-of-congestion-pr...
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    Yes, that’s the hole that state and local funding has left. The third picture in the post shows this pretty clearly. I have no particular reason to believe that the MTA is an efficient organization. They definitely aren’t. But I also haven’t seen any outstanding evidence of corruption getting worse in the last few years (and lots of evidence to the contrary, vis a vis criminal punishments for OT fraud). The MTA’s operational cost appears to be mostly stagnant, with a decline in local and state budgeting causing the gap, not a rise in waste on their side.
    - slt2021 2y ago
      I am curious to learn your opinion: why not simply raise fares, tolls, and add additional tax on companies/payroll/property tax ? if transit is so beneficial for everyone, as CP advocates claim, people should be happy to pay up to keep their beloved MTA afloat. Universal tolls will work the same as congestion pricing, arguably even stronger effect and discourage driving across Manhattan. I don't understand why these tricks with congestion, when the argument is basically we need money for MTA, and nobody actually cares about clean air at MTA. As much as I object CP, I think honest communication about pathetic cost and budget problem would be more productive. and solution sourcing money from multiple sources via combination of fares, tolls, taxes would dampen an individual effect of a single measure. Much easier to swallow $200/yr increase in payroll tax, $200/yr increase in tolls, $200/yr increase in fares, rather than $2000/yr charge for CP (because it would apply to smaller population)
      - Panzer04 2y ago
        Well, the general idea is that it's presumably beneficial to apply a CP charge on net. You discourage people from driving into the city where there's insufficient capacity to move all of the vehicles efficiently. It's basically pricing an externality that is not normally priced in most cases. The tax collection is probably the main motivation, but there's going to be significant benefits for many regardless of that - spending less time in traffic, less car usage, etc etc.

woodruffw 2y ago

The congestion pricing fees were slated to go into capital programs, not operations. So that would be a very weird way for the MTA to attempt to hide their unsustainability, given that the money wouldn't be available for operational costs. I don't particularly disagree about the city deserving the money instead. But that would have to come with MTA giving NYCT back to the city, and that is unlikely to happen.

slt2021 2y ago
there is at least $2 bln hole due to loss of CP, even after excluding all capital projects and new equipment purchases. And equipment replacement is operational cost, it is not capital project, because in every organization part some part of budget msut be allocated for equipment replacement. " even if the MTA were to forego purchasing new subway cars, commuter rail locomotives and buses, the agency would still be $2 billion in the hole." https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/06/24/loss-of-congestion-pricing-toll-will-hit-mta-operational-budget-too-officials/ https://www.nydailynews.com/2024/06/24/loss-of-congestion-pr...
- woodruffw 2y ago
  Yes, that’s the hole that state and local funding has left. The third picture in the post shows this pretty clearly. I have no particular reason to believe that the MTA is an efficient organization. They definitely aren’t. But I also haven’t seen any outstanding evidence of corruption getting worse in the last few years (and lots of evidence to the contrary, vis a vis criminal punishments for OT fraud). The MTA’s operational cost appears to be mostly stagnant, with a decline in local and state budgeting causing the gap, not a rise in waste on their side.
  - slt2021 2y ago
    I am curious to learn your opinion: why not simply raise fares, tolls, and add additional tax on companies/payroll/property tax ? if transit is so beneficial for everyone, as CP advocates claim, people should be happy to pay up to keep their beloved MTA afloat. Universal tolls will work the same as congestion pricing, arguably even stronger effect and discourage driving across Manhattan. I don't understand why these tricks with congestion, when the argument is basically we need money for MTA, and nobody actually cares about clean air at MTA. As much as I object CP, I think honest communication about pathetic cost and budget problem would be more productive. and solution sourcing money from multiple sources via combination of fares, tolls, taxes would dampen an individual effect of a single measure. Much easier to swallow $200/yr increase in payroll tax, $200/yr increase in tolls, $200/yr increase in fares, rather than $2000/yr charge for CP (because it would apply to smaller population)
    - Panzer04 2y ago
      Well, the general idea is that it's presumably beneficial to apply a CP charge on net. You discourage people from driving into the city where there's insufficient capacity to move all of the vehicles efficiently. It's basically pricing an externality that is not normally priced in most cases. The tax collection is probably the main motivation, but there's going to be significant benefits for many regardless of that - spending less time in traffic, less car usage, etc etc.