4 ms·

>ported to python are just objectively worse in that language This is absolutely the case. Dplyr syntax is much more intuitive for many use cases than Pandas o

>ported to python are just objectively worse in that language This is absolutely the case. Dplyr syntax is much more intuitive for many use cases than Pandas or Polars equivalents. One thing I miss from RStudio is the Rmarkdown documents with inline outputs. Jupyter notebooks, even in VSCode, are so needlessly over-engineered and under-featured compared to the elegance of RMarkdown. So I am excited to see what Posit can do to bring that experience to python. My git repos will be thankfull anyway.

cd4plus 2y ago
I can't stand jupyter notebooks for several reasons. I've been using https://quarto.org/ https://quarto.org/ and writing .qmd docs and really enjoy it.
archiewood 2y ago
You might be interested in what we’re building over at Evidence.dev It’s basically RMarkdown for SQL
- xmcqdpt2 2y ago
  Neat! I have to deal with splunk at work and every time I do I'm annoyed that they decided to create their own query language.
asdff 2y ago
I don't even know why people need to use dpyler and the tidyverse, in my opinion R is very comfortable for data wrangling and making all kinds of plots out of the box. Its able to handle huge amounts of data as well especially if you adopt a functional programming approach vs object oriented (what I see with a lot of the classic "academic" brittle hardcoded slop that R gets a bad rap for). Very fast if you keep in mind it is a vectorized language and write your scripts with that perspective. Tidyverse seems like a new, unrelated syntax to learn on top of it all, whereas the base graphics packages very much work like the base statistical functions and the base data wrangling and everything else in the base R package.
- vegabook 2y ago
  Base graphics are also _massively_ faster than ggplot when data sizes get larger. To the extent that ggplot essentially becomes unusable.
- aftoprokrustes 2y ago
  My feeling is that people with a more mathematical background tend to like developping DSLs that look more like math than code, and is typically written once and then thrown away; whereas people with a more software engineering background tend to prefer code that is more explicit about what it does, and have a better understanding about long term implications for maintenanability/extensibility. Which for me is the summary of the R versus Python debate in general. One can see that in the JVM world with java vs scala: people attracted to scala tend to like "cute" DSL, java people tend to be more careful with shiny new features. (This is an oversimplification, of course) Specifically for dplyr: it looks cute and tends to be easier to use in a REPL setting (you can build your pipeline step by step by running your command, looking at the output, get the command from history, add a step, run again; and at the end you get a single line to copy paste in your script). But if you want to wrap it in a function, it tends to create issues.
- SassyBird 2y ago
  The base graphics packages make the plots as ugly as the ones generated by gnuplot though. ggplot2 on the other hand has very pretty output. And the concept of grammar of plots just makes so much sense to me.
  - asdff 2y ago
    You can make plots look however you want with base graphics. ggplot2 users mainly use the default settings honestly, you get that classic grey background plot I personally find more ugly than the cleaner white background defaults of the base package.
  - lottin 2y ago
    Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I much prefer the aesthetics of plots made with the lattice package or even base R over ggplot's.
bbkane 2y ago
A friend and I have been having a blast with Observable Framework. It seems really well put together- markdown + code blocks. See https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Urf_bPFyhIk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Urf_bPFyhIk for a short demo
padthai 2y ago
> One thing I miss from RStudio is the Rmarkdown documents with inline outputs This is already in Quarto! https://quarto.org/docs/computations/inline-code.html#:~:text=Quarto%20provides%20an%20inline%20code,in%20the%20middle%20of%20markdown https://quarto.org/docs/computations/inline-code.html#:~:tex....
dr_kiszonka 2y ago
Just curious, what Rmarkdown features do you find lacking in VSCode notebooks? I have the opposite impression, but I am probably missing something because I don't use RStudio as much as VSCode.
setopt 2y ago
> One thing I miss from RStudio is the Rmarkdown documents with inline outputs RMarkdown (Rmd) was recently developed into “Quarto” (Qmd), precisely because they now support Python as well. I’ve used it a bit and it’s excellent.
- jhbadger 2y ago
  But Rmd already supported python chunks (as well as other languages such as ruby, which seem to be missing from Qmd)
  - idf00 2y ago
    Quarto supports any language and works just fine. I have quarto blog posts for using APL as an example of a somewhat niche language.
    - jhbadger 2y ago
      I guess you have to add some plugin? I mean in Rmarkdown in Rstudio I just go ```{ruby} and I have a ruby block with nothing special installed. That doesn't work by default with Quarto.
      - setopt 2y ago
        In the Quarto front matter, you can choose to use a Jupyter backend, in which case any Jupyter kernel can be used to interpret code blocks. Many languages, including APL, have Jupyter kernels you can install.
wjholden 2y ago
RMarkdown really is great. I used RStudio/RMarkdown for almost all my homeworks, projects, and even papers with no code during my MS program. I now realize that it was Pandoc's Markdown mixed with LaTeX that I appreciated so much for scientific writing, but with RMarkdown you can easily call R and Julia. I don't remember invoking Python from RMarkdowm (maybe you already could in RStudio but I never did), so this will be a welcome addition in this new Posit program.

cd4plus 2y ago

I can't stand jupyter notebooks for several reasons. I've been using https://quarto.org/ https://quarto.org/ and writing .qmd docs and really enjoy it.

archiewood 2y ago

You might be interested in what we’re building over at Evidence.dev It’s basically RMarkdown for SQL

xmcqdpt2 2y ago
Neat! I have to deal with splunk at work and every time I do I'm annoyed that they decided to create their own query language.

asdff 2y ago

I don't even know why people need to use dpyler and the tidyverse, in my opinion R is very comfortable for data wrangling and making all kinds of plots out of the box. Its able to handle huge amounts of data as well especially if you adopt a functional programming approach vs object oriented (what I see with a lot of the classic "academic" brittle hardcoded slop that R gets a bad rap for). Very fast if you keep in mind it is a vectorized language and write your scripts with that perspective. Tidyverse seems like a new, unrelated syntax to learn on top of it all, whereas the base graphics packages very much work like the base statistical functions and the base data wrangling and everything else in the base R package.

vegabook 2y ago
Base graphics are also _massively_ faster than ggplot when data sizes get larger. To the extent that ggplot essentially becomes unusable.
aftoprokrustes 2y ago
My feeling is that people with a more mathematical background tend to like developping DSLs that look more like math than code, and is typically written once and then thrown away; whereas people with a more software engineering background tend to prefer code that is more explicit about what it does, and have a better understanding about long term implications for maintenanability/extensibility. Which for me is the summary of the R versus Python debate in general. One can see that in the JVM world with java vs scala: people attracted to scala tend to like "cute" DSL, java people tend to be more careful with shiny new features. (This is an oversimplification, of course) Specifically for dplyr: it looks cute and tends to be easier to use in a REPL setting (you can build your pipeline step by step by running your command, looking at the output, get the command from history, add a step, run again; and at the end you get a single line to copy paste in your script). But if you want to wrap it in a function, it tends to create issues.
SassyBird 2y ago
The base graphics packages make the plots as ugly as the ones generated by gnuplot though. ggplot2 on the other hand has very pretty output. And the concept of grammar of plots just makes so much sense to me.
- asdff 2y ago
  You can make plots look however you want with base graphics. ggplot2 users mainly use the default settings honestly, you get that classic grey background plot I personally find more ugly than the cleaner white background defaults of the base package.
- lottin 2y ago
  Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I much prefer the aesthetics of plots made with the lattice package or even base R over ggplot's.

bbkane 2y ago

A friend and I have been having a blast with Observable Framework. It seems really well put together- markdown + code blocks. See https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Urf_bPFyhIk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Urf_bPFyhIk for a short demo

padthai 2y ago

> One thing I miss from RStudio is the Rmarkdown documents with inline outputs This is already in Quarto! https://quarto.org/docs/computations/inline-code.html#:~:text=Quarto%20provides%20an%20inline%20code,in%20the%20middle%20of%20markdown https://quarto.org/docs/computations/inline-code.html#:~:tex....

dr_kiszonka 2y ago

Just curious, what Rmarkdown features do you find lacking in VSCode notebooks? I have the opposite impression, but I am probably missing something because I don't use RStudio as much as VSCode.

setopt 2y ago

> One thing I miss from RStudio is the Rmarkdown documents with inline outputs RMarkdown (Rmd) was recently developed into “Quarto” (Qmd), precisely because they now support Python as well. I’ve used it a bit and it’s excellent.

jhbadger 2y ago
But Rmd already supported python chunks (as well as other languages such as ruby, which seem to be missing from Qmd)
- idf00 2y ago
  Quarto supports any language and works just fine. I have quarto blog posts for using APL as an example of a somewhat niche language.
  - jhbadger 2y ago
    I guess you have to add some plugin? I mean in Rmarkdown in Rstudio I just go ```{ruby} and I have a ruby block with nothing special installed. That doesn't work by default with Quarto.
    - setopt 2y ago
      In the Quarto front matter, you can choose to use a Jupyter backend, in which case any Jupyter kernel can be used to interpret code blocks. Many languages, including APL, have Jupyter kernels you can install.

wjholden 2y ago

RMarkdown really is great. I used RStudio/RMarkdown for almost all my homeworks, projects, and even papers with no code during my MS program. I now realize that it was Pandoc's Markdown mixed with LaTeX that I appreciated so much for scientific writing, but with RMarkdown you can easily call R and Julia. I don't remember invoking Python from RMarkdowm (maybe you already could in RStudio but I never did), so this will be a welcome addition in this new Posit program.