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> Can I sell my kidney? I don't see why not. Me saying you can't would imply that I have a stronger claim to your own kidney than you do. This is a pretty hard

> Can I sell my kidney? I don't see why not. Me saying you can't would imply that I have a stronger claim to your own kidney than you do. This is a pretty hard claim to substantiate. The majority can be, and often is, wrong.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
Interesting if I can sell my organs, Essential for survival, That I’m selling my life logically I should be able to sell my life in other ways. So I should be able to sell myself into slavery. If so, Then your idea of freedom creates more un-freedom. If not, Then you must have a logical reason why selling my liver and dying after that is okay but selling myself and living after that is not okay. And it cannot rely on the fact that it’s been hammered into us from a young age that slavery is bad. It has to be consistent and logical
- thegrimmest 2y ago
  > So I should be able to sell myself into slavery. No, because that would imply that a person can own another person. Free, morally equal, people cannot own each other. It would also imply that present-you can obligate future-you in a way that fundamentally compromises future-you's freedom. Present-you can however terminate his own existence, since present-you has the strongest claim on it. Interactions must be consensual with the possibility to opt-out backed by bankruptcy protection. If you agree to donate your organs in return for compensation (presumably to your estate), but change your mind on the operating table, you should be perfectly entitled to do so. You may incur a bankruptcy protected obligation if you signed an agreement to that effect Consent should be the fundamental principle guiding all interactions. It also conveniently precludes slavery.
  - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
    > Interactions must be consensual with the possibility to opt-out backed by bankruptcy protection So student loans, as they are not discharge able in bankruptcy, are a form of debt bondage / slavery? Also in UK you have to pay to declare yourself bankrupt, which is also questionable. Also you can’t back-out of an organ sale, you are under Anastasia and then you are dead. The idea that it’s better than still being alive seems morally myopic to me.
    - thegrimmest 2y ago
      Student loans are not dischargeable by bankruptcy because an education is not an asset that can be seized and sold during the process. There should be (and are) pretty strict limits on how your wages can be garnished to repay this debt. However I do agree that student loans are a form of debt bondage, and are questionably ethical for that reason. I would much prefer student loans not be given special protection. That would at least help us stop subsidizing educations that do not lead to productive careers. I would not be opposed to licensed professions (eg. doctors, lawyers) adopting policies that would revoke licenses for members defaulting on their student loans via bankruptcy. I don't imagine any intervention would be required for such policies to arise if the special status of student loans were to be reconsidered. > Also you can’t back-out of an organ sale Yes of course you can only back out up until the point you are rendered unconscious. You have to reconsider before then. The idea that "life" and "death" are somehow morally important states is what has been "hammered into us from a young age". Morality is a relationship between (free and equal) moral agents. The important concept is therefore agency and its expression via consent.
      - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
        You have just spent four paragraphs outlining how it must be important to be able to backout of any agreement, how freedom is important, and now you propose semi-facist system! > licensed professions (eg. doctors, lawyers) adopting policies that would revoke licenses for members defaulting on their student loans via bankruptcy. Let's consider the meaning of this, and why it smells of fascism: * An unrelated third party is recruited to use it's power to enforce government policy (if it's taxpayer money) or protect someone else's private investment. This is no longer an agreement between two parties, the loan is now backed by threat of force. The lender no longer has to ask themselves "well if we raise interest rate too much, people will default and we will suffer" * The revoked license cannot be sold, like a house would be, it is of no use to the bank, the only effect is punitive and moral police * If i am the doctor's employer, you have just inflicted loses upon me, to protect your investment that I have nothing to do with. * If I am a customer or patient, and paid for a service, you have also inflicted loses upon me, it's now a crime for me to receive treatment from this doctor, despite the fact that they are qualified. * It is affected by government policy and macroeconomics that even professional fund managers cannot predict, let alone an 18-year old student. You get high inflation due to war in Ukraine, and suddenly half of your doctors have their license revoked! Great result! > an education is not an asset that can be seized and sold during the process As any unsecured loan, you can take out a loan and spend it all on hookers and drugs. I think this entire attitude is driven by the fact that in the English speaking west there is great contempt for the younger generation and they are okay to exploit. They are subject of derision and almost seen as sub-human. Why don't we treat pensioners this way, make them do some mandatory community service in the nursery to get their state pension! There would be riots in the streets!

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ClumsyPilot 2y ago

Interesting if I can sell my organs, Essential for survival, That I’m selling my life logically I should be able to sell my life in other ways. So I should be able to sell myself into slavery. If so, Then your idea of freedom creates more un-freedom. If not, Then you must have a logical reason why selling my liver and dying after that is okay but selling myself and living after that is not okay. And it cannot rely on the fact that it’s been hammered into us from a young age that slavery is bad. It has to be consistent and logical

thegrimmest 2y ago
> So I should be able to sell myself into slavery. No, because that would imply that a person can own another person. Free, morally equal, people cannot own each other. It would also imply that present-you can obligate future-you in a way that fundamentally compromises future-you's freedom. Present-you can however terminate his own existence, since present-you has the strongest claim on it. Interactions must be consensual with the possibility to opt-out backed by bankruptcy protection. If you agree to donate your organs in return for compensation (presumably to your estate), but change your mind on the operating table, you should be perfectly entitled to do so. You may incur a bankruptcy protected obligation if you signed an agreement to that effect Consent should be the fundamental principle guiding all interactions. It also conveniently precludes slavery.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  > Interactions must be consensual with the possibility to opt-out backed by bankruptcy protection So student loans, as they are not discharge able in bankruptcy, are a form of debt bondage / slavery? Also in UK you have to pay to declare yourself bankrupt, which is also questionable. Also you can’t back-out of an organ sale, you are under Anastasia and then you are dead. The idea that it’s better than still being alive seems morally myopic to me.
  - thegrimmest 2y ago
    Student loans are not dischargeable by bankruptcy because an education is not an asset that can be seized and sold during the process. There should be (and are) pretty strict limits on how your wages can be garnished to repay this debt. However I do agree that student loans are a form of debt bondage, and are questionably ethical for that reason. I would much prefer student loans not be given special protection. That would at least help us stop subsidizing educations that do not lead to productive careers. I would not be opposed to licensed professions (eg. doctors, lawyers) adopting policies that would revoke licenses for members defaulting on their student loans via bankruptcy. I don't imagine any intervention would be required for such policies to arise if the special status of student loans were to be reconsidered. > Also you can’t back-out of an organ sale Yes of course you can only back out up until the point you are rendered unconscious. You have to reconsider before then. The idea that "life" and "death" are somehow morally important states is what has been "hammered into us from a young age". Morality is a relationship between (free and equal) moral agents. The important concept is therefore agency and its expression via consent.
    - ClumsyPilot 2y ago
      You have just spent four paragraphs outlining how it must be important to be able to backout of any agreement, how freedom is important, and now you propose semi-facist system! > licensed professions (eg. doctors, lawyers) adopting policies that would revoke licenses for members defaulting on their student loans via bankruptcy. Let's consider the meaning of this, and why it smells of fascism: * An unrelated third party is recruited to use it's power to enforce government policy (if it's taxpayer money) or protect someone else's private investment. This is no longer an agreement between two parties, the loan is now backed by threat of force. The lender no longer has to ask themselves "well if we raise interest rate too much, people will default and we will suffer" * The revoked license cannot be sold, like a house would be, it is of no use to the bank, the only effect is punitive and moral police * If i am the doctor's employer, you have just inflicted loses upon me, to protect your investment that I have nothing to do with. * If I am a customer or patient, and paid for a service, you have also inflicted loses upon me, it's now a crime for me to receive treatment from this doctor, despite the fact that they are qualified. * It is affected by government policy and macroeconomics that even professional fund managers cannot predict, let alone an 18-year old student. You get high inflation due to war in Ukraine, and suddenly half of your doctors have their license revoked! Great result! > an education is not an asset that can be seized and sold during the process As any unsecured loan, you can take out a loan and spend it all on hookers and drugs. I think this entire attitude is driven by the fact that in the English speaking west there is great contempt for the younger generation and they are okay to exploit. They are subject of derision and almost seen as sub-human. Why don't we treat pensioners this way, make them do some mandatory community service in the nursery to get their state pension! There would be riots in the streets!