4 ms·

'I'm Not Your Wife' A New Study Points to a Hidden Form of Sexism

19 points by mikexstudios 14y ago

lifeisstillgood 14y ago
Just as a thought experiment, do you think Mary Zuckerberg, the 28 year old founder of Facebook whose casual jeans and hoodie so outrages the investment community would be an ideal role model for entrepreneurs in Hacker News?
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  I don't understand, at all. Also, is the implication at least in part that Mark Zuckerberg is a role model for entrepreneurs in Hacker News?
  - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    If Mark were Mary, do you think the trajectory of FB would have been the same? If so, why? If not why not. It's just one way to try and see our own filters. But anyway the premise seems to be that success is bestowed upon you from on high, and if on high is mildly and subcociously sexist they don't do it so well. I fear the real world has a lot more factors involved than patronage from senior management.
    - mikeash 14y ago
      Certainly there are other factors, but patronage certainly helps. Just because you can make it in other ways doesn't mean there isn't a bad bias, and exceptional cases are an awful way to address the needs of the masses.
- theorique 14y ago
  (1) Mary Zuckerberg? (2) In what way is this related to the article. His wife is a recent medical school graduate and it's not known yet what her future work plans are. (3) Zuckerberg has not been cited for being either uncommonly progressive or uncommonly sexist in his views on women in the workplace. What does he have to do with the questions raised in the Atlantic article?
  - lifeisstillgood 14y ago
    No, if the person who founded Facebook had been a female graduate from the Ivy League, do you think that Facebooks history to date would have been the same. The temptation (mine anyway) is to say yes, and prove what a well balanced fellow I am. But I ask further down if you say yes, why yes? I noticed that the real Mark got married and I did not even know he had a relationship. But I swear if Mary Zuckerberg, billionairess, famous Internet entrprenuer had been engaged the whole world would know his face, shoe size and that famous Oprah interview ... So the media would have been different for sure. Would that have mattered? Just questions to get at our own filters
    - Mz 14y ago
      Celebrities of both sexes have choices to make regarding how much to downplay their private life. Some celebrities are very good at keeping their families mostly out of it. Others are not. I am not so sure that's a gender thing. My marriage was a very private matter and we both protected it from prying outsiders.
    - larrys 14y ago
      "I did not even know he had a relationship." That was pretty widely known actually. Here is an article randomly picked from 2009: http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs-private-photos-2009-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs...
    - theorique 14y ago
      Ah, I misunderstood - your subtle question made me think it was a typo.
  - larrys 14y ago
    When doing (1) probably best to put quotes around the object. Edit: I mean the parent, not you. Sorry. Italics are obviously correct.
    - Mz 14y ago
      In this case, I think using something like Marcie instead of Mary would have made it more obvious/clear that it wasn't just a typo.
mutagen 14y ago
I think we subconsciously evaluate most of our relationships through the lens of previous relationships. We compare our first boss to our fathers and mothers and teachers, previous authority figures. We compare our co-workers to our friends, our roommates or classmates or the childhood friends we kept in touch with. And clearly, these men in "traditional" marriages are evaluating their women co-workers in terms of their primary female relationship, which doesn't work out well for equality. As the article points out, much of this is unconscious, even opposite of what they think they're doing. That really makes me wonder about my professional and personal relationships. While I'm fortunate to have been exposed to a wide variety of people of both genders in professional and social circles, I wonder what unconscious biases are still affecting my professional relationships.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  I'm gay and I don't evaluate other men or their capabilities against those that I have with my partner. (In fact, it could be scary or hilarious depending on which way I might try to do that). I understand this explanation and at first I was inclined to go along with it, but I'm almost more disturbed by the conclusion. [These] men have such limited exposure to "real" or other women that they can only shoe-horn other women as they perceive them? Based off a microscopic sample? Or am I just way out in left field? I don't mean to be.
plorkyeran 14y ago
The causal relation that this article is supporting seems backwards. They aren't biased against women in the workplace because they're in a traditional marriage; they're in a traditional marriage because they're biased against women in the workplace and so would be less likely to marry a woman that wants a "modern" marriage.
- sp332 14y ago
  I think the direction is pretty plausible. I often treat people according to whoever I was last talking to. And I catch myself interpreting women's behavior according to whichever woman I last had a long conversation with.
7952 14y ago
People see management as a way of fulfilling their own life goals rather than an opportunity to genuinely help develop members of their team. The status of the managers personal life is going to have a huge impact on what particular goals they have. In my completely anecdotal experience; married men with kids have much higher expectation of deference than other groups.
carsongross 14y ago
I'm glad that we keep the focus tight here at sexist news.
DanielBMarkham 14y ago
I've finally reached the point I can't tell the difference between a serious academic article and something from The Onion. Trying to take this seriously, I believe the authors of the study have discovered, quite shockingly it seems, that men tend to extrapolate experiences they have in one social context into another. Women are not mentioned at all in this regard. One assumes they are either immune or did not deserve equal attention from the researchers. That's about all I got. Plus there was some dragging in of current politics -- it can't be that these types of things have political overtones, can it? Heaven forfend! My sarcasm font is broken, so I'll just come out and say it: this is link and argument bait and accomplishes nothing whatsoever except to make people argue with each other about "hidden biases". One supposes that if these biases were truly hidden that arguing about them would be impossible, yet somehow it still occurs. Definitely not worth an upvote. ADD: I'll continue the rant a bit more. We have lot of a lot of good articles sliding off the new page -- hell, for what it's worth somebody submitted my latest blog article just a couple of hours ago on cool CSS tricks -- and the top stories on here now are along the lines of "I'm not your wife", "Mean things border agents did to me" and "Dear Horuku"? I love meta talk and pushing boundaries when it comes to thinking through problems in a unique way, and I even love a good thought-provoking slice-of-life or political story, but this stuff is just empty-headed garbage designed to waste time. </rant> I feel better now. :)
- rsanchez1 14y ago
  You're totally ranting about the wrong thing. What you should be ranting about is people who keep confusing HN with reddit.
- heretohelp 14y ago
  I think you're right about how awful the content has gotten here.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
rsanchez1 14y ago
Thanks, reddit.
delinka 14y ago
"Someone I know, gender unimportant, that only reads the ads and the comics. I'm just asking if you're doing similar." This is not a sexist line of thinking. I would, however, consider it somewhat rude. No, it's my paper and I bought it and you have no right to expect any share of it ... unless I'm kind enough to drop it when I'm done or take only the sections I want.

19 points by mikexstudios 14y ago

Just as a thought experiment, do you think Mary Zuckerberg, the 28 year old founder of Facebook whose casual jeans and hoodie so outrages the investment community would be an ideal role model for entrepreneurs in Hacker News?

drivebyacct2 14y ago
I don't understand, at all. Also, is the implication at least in part that Mark Zuckerberg is a role model for entrepreneurs in Hacker News?
- lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  If Mark were Mary, do you think the trajectory of FB would have been the same? If so, why? If not why not. It's just one way to try and see our own filters. But anyway the premise seems to be that success is bestowed upon you from on high, and if on high is mildly and subcociously sexist they don't do it so well. I fear the real world has a lot more factors involved than patronage from senior management.
  - mikeash 14y ago
    Certainly there are other factors, but patronage certainly helps. Just because you can make it in other ways doesn't mean there isn't a bad bias, and exceptional cases are an awful way to address the needs of the masses.
theorique 14y ago
(1) Mary Zuckerberg? (2) In what way is this related to the article. His wife is a recent medical school graduate and it's not known yet what her future work plans are. (3) Zuckerberg has not been cited for being either uncommonly progressive or uncommonly sexist in his views on women in the workplace. What does he have to do with the questions raised in the Atlantic article?
- lifeisstillgood 14y ago
  No, if the person who founded Facebook had been a female graduate from the Ivy League, do you think that Facebooks history to date would have been the same. The temptation (mine anyway) is to say yes, and prove what a well balanced fellow I am. But I ask further down if you say yes, why yes? I noticed that the real Mark got married and I did not even know he had a relationship. But I swear if Mary Zuckerberg, billionairess, famous Internet entrprenuer had been engaged the whole world would know his face, shoe size and that famous Oprah interview ... So the media would have been different for sure. Would that have mattered? Just questions to get at our own filters
  - Mz 14y ago
    Celebrities of both sexes have choices to make regarding how much to downplay their private life. Some celebrities are very good at keeping their families mostly out of it. Others are not. I am not so sure that's a gender thing. My marriage was a very private matter and we both protected it from prying outsiders.
  - larrys 14y ago
    "I did not even know he had a relationship." That was pretty widely known actually. Here is an article randomly picked from 2009: http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs-private-photos-2009-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerbergs...
  - theorique 14y ago
    Ah, I misunderstood - your subtle question made me think it was a typo.
- larrys 14y ago
  When doing (1) probably best to put quotes around the object. Edit: I mean the parent, not you. Sorry. Italics are obviously correct.
  - Mz 14y ago
    In this case, I think using something like Marcie instead of Mary would have made it more obvious/clear that it wasn't just a typo.

mutagen 14y ago

I think we subconsciously evaluate most of our relationships through the lens of previous relationships. We compare our first boss to our fathers and mothers and teachers, previous authority figures. We compare our co-workers to our friends, our roommates or classmates or the childhood friends we kept in touch with. And clearly, these men in "traditional" marriages are evaluating their women co-workers in terms of their primary female relationship, which doesn't work out well for equality. As the article points out, much of this is unconscious, even opposite of what they think they're doing. That really makes me wonder about my professional and personal relationships. While I'm fortunate to have been exposed to a wide variety of people of both genders in professional and social circles, I wonder what unconscious biases are still affecting my professional relationships.

drivebyacct2 14y ago
I'm gay and I don't evaluate other men or their capabilities against those that I have with my partner. (In fact, it could be scary or hilarious depending on which way I might try to do that). I understand this explanation and at first I was inclined to go along with it, but I'm almost more disturbed by the conclusion. [These] men have such limited exposure to "real" or other women that they can only shoe-horn other women as they perceive them? Based off a microscopic sample? Or am I just way out in left field? I don't mean to be.

plorkyeran 14y ago

The causal relation that this article is supporting seems backwards. They aren't biased against women in the workplace because they're in a traditional marriage; they're in a traditional marriage because they're biased against women in the workplace and so would be less likely to marry a woman that wants a "modern" marriage.

sp332 14y ago
I think the direction is pretty plausible. I often treat people according to whoever I was last talking to. And I catch myself interpreting women's behavior according to whichever woman I last had a long conversation with.

7952 14y ago

People see management as a way of fulfilling their own life goals rather than an opportunity to genuinely help develop members of their team. The status of the managers personal life is going to have a huge impact on what particular goals they have. In my completely anecdotal experience; married men with kids have much higher expectation of deference than other groups.

carsongross 14y ago

I'm glad that we keep the focus tight here at sexist news.

DanielBMarkham 14y ago

I've finally reached the point I can't tell the difference between a serious academic article and something from The Onion. Trying to take this seriously, I believe the authors of the study have discovered, quite shockingly it seems, that men tend to extrapolate experiences they have in one social context into another. Women are not mentioned at all in this regard. One assumes they are either immune or did not deserve equal attention from the researchers. That's about all I got. Plus there was some dragging in of current politics -- it can't be that these types of things have political overtones, can it? Heaven forfend! My sarcasm font is broken, so I'll just come out and say it: this is link and argument bait and accomplishes nothing whatsoever except to make people argue with each other about "hidden biases". One supposes that if these biases were truly hidden that arguing about them would be impossible, yet somehow it still occurs. Definitely not worth an upvote. ADD: I'll continue the rant a bit more. We have lot of a lot of good articles sliding off the new page -- hell, for what it's worth somebody submitted my latest blog article just a couple of hours ago on cool CSS tricks -- and the top stories on here now are along the lines of "I'm not your wife", "Mean things border agents did to me" and "Dear Horuku"? I love meta talk and pushing boundaries when it comes to thinking through problems in a unique way, and I even love a good thought-provoking slice-of-life or political story, but this stuff is just empty-headed garbage designed to waste time. </rant> I feel better now. :)

rsanchez1 14y ago
You're totally ranting about the wrong thing. What you should be ranting about is people who keep confusing HN with reddit.
heretohelp 14y ago
I think you're right about how awful the content has gotten here.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

rsanchez1 14y ago

Thanks, reddit.

delinka 14y ago

"Someone I know, gender unimportant, that only reads the ads and the comics. I'm just asking if you're doing similar." This is not a sexist line of thinking. I would, however, consider it somewhat rude. No, it's my paper and I bought it and you have no right to expect any share of it ... unless I'm kind enough to drop it when I'm done or take only the sections I want.