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It's the same shit practically all the way back to opium wars. Always the drug dealers fault. I blame the patient. We've known opiates were bad since at leas

It's the same shit practically all the way back to opium wars. Always the drug dealers fault. I blame the patient. We've known opiates were bad since at least the 1800s, and really longer than that. What the doc said was just what they needed to hear to lie to themselves, but this is taught in every highschool.

voisin 2y ago
> We've known opiates were bad since at least the 1800s, and really longer than that. What the doc said was just what they needed to hear to lie to themselves, but this is taught in every highschool. I am not sure high schools are teaching people to be distrustful of their doctor’s advice. I think what’s being taught is about the dangers of illicit drugs, not those with a medical expert’s stamp of approval.
- beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
  On the plus side between oxy and COVID distrust is now at all time highs. People have learned you can't trust the doc anymore than a quik-lube mecanico.
tonyarkles 2y ago
> but this is taught in every high school Here's the thing about what they teach you about drugs in high school: lots of it is bullshit. I don't know if it's still a thing but when I was in school there was a lot of pearl clutching about weed being a Gateway Drug. For a lot of people who smoked weed and didn't progress towards any harder drugs, weed was a prime example of how drug education was a sham. No one went crazy, none of the weed horror stories came true, everyone enjoyed the concert and woke up the next morning feeling better than if they'd been drinking alcohol the night before.
com2kid 2y ago
> I blame the patient. We've known opiates were bad since at least the 1800s, and really longer than that. As a reminder, Oxy was heavily marketed, (to doctors!) as a "not bad" opioid. As in, not as addictive, not as problematic, and something that can be prescribed more easily and with less worries. If a doctor comes up and tell you "don't worry about this one, it isn't addictive like the others", and you are in a ton of pain at the time, you are going to thank modern medicine for its new miracle pain drug and accept the prescription. > but this is taught in every highschool. And as another reminder, most schools, until recently, just taught that "drugs are bad" and kind of left it at that. They exaggerated some of the down sides, and didn't mention any of the positive experiences. IMHO South Park actually did the world's best anti pot ad - "Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund terrorism, but… well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you aren't good at anything." - And IMHO messages like that are more useful than what kids are being told. There is also the social contract side of things - Since around 1950s, if people worked hard they things in return from society: A stable job, a house, the opportunity to raise a family. That social contract is shot to shit, and so it should be no surprise that more and more people are choosing to drop out of society via drugs/games/apathy.
- beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
  You didn't learn about the opium wars? I'm not talking about dare which was obvious bullshit, I'm talking of learning from history. There was no weed war, that a drug caused a couple wars lasting decades should at least raise an eyebrow of any thinking person.
  - com2kid 2y ago
    We didn't study the Opium Wars in history at all throughout my education, I learned about those on my own thanks to the Internet. The entire Middle East, our influence in South America, etc, none of that was covered in school, and I went to some pretty good public schools. (E.g. in High School we edited DNA of Bacteria) For that matter, I think China was only mentioned in passing throughout my entire education. WW1 was also only mentioned very briefly (maybe a couple weeks? Archduke is shot, shit goes down) and then we spent a fair bit of time on WW2, but less than we spent on Ancient Egypt honestly. (I think we spent an entire 2 or 3 months on Ancient Egypt). We spent a fair amount of time on the Reformation and Renaissance, ancient Greece and Rome, and US history was mostly a ~bullshit~ censored history of the founding of the US. The Washington State history classes went into some history of the local tribes, but failed to mention any of the fun details about how Seattle was founded (prostitution, drinking, Seattle literally poisoning the wells of nearby towns to force them to join Seattle to get access to clean water) College was better, mostly US history and World History, still nothing about the far east though. We did an excellent segment on the US Revolution in College, including the funding source behind the revolutionary war, that was very interesting. Edit: Sex ed was pretty comprehensive, and we ended the quarter by watching Rocky Horror Picture Show, so that was fun. (The Nerd and Goth kids formed a voting block for what movie to watch. :D) I am still surprised they talked about so much about forms of contraceptives that almost no one uses (spermicidal gels and foams), but at least they properly demonstrated how to use a condom, so that was good. For "don't smoke" the health teacher had lots of pictures of tumors. Alcohol wasn't really talked about, but honestly in the 90s we didn't know a much about how unhealthy it is as we do now. (Doctors knew it was bad, but just in the last few years research has come out showing that the safe amount of drinking is none)
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
jnovek 2y ago
This is spoken like someone who has enjoyed the privilege of living without chronic pain.
- beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
  Of course, I speak from the pillar of privilege and but am a lowly untouchable on the great victimhood totempole. We should instead only listen to the high priest victims, uncontrollably fented our their minds to kill the pain. If you want to get rocked on opiates have at it, it's your body, just don't pretend you don't know they're addictive. It's ok to be an addict if you're honest to yourself about what's happening. Might even make sense if the pain is chronically awful.
0x00_NULL 2y ago
That’s gotta be the most ignorant opinion I’ve heard on the subject. This clearly is coming from someone who has had the benefit of good health, or hasn’t had the misfortune of a critical ER visit. When I got addicted to opioids, the doctors didn’t ask me what I wanted in the ER. I got Dilauded as they prepped the OR. I wasn’t lucid enough or cognizant enough to give informed consent. During my recovery, there wasn’t an option of alternate anything - I got a lot of morphine and then oxy. I was discharged 4 weeks later from the hospital with a 3 month prescription for 120mg of opioids per day. That would kill most people. My story is not unique. It is so common it could be a troupe. The doctors saved my life in one way, then discharged me into a hell of addiction that it took 9 months of serious determined effort to overcome. Then, some uninformed keyboard warrior like yourself comes along and blames people in my situation? Maybe you should have read a little less Opioid Wars and a little more Current Events. You clearly know nothing about this problem.
- beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
  I've worked in the ER, held a license to work there, and spend everyday with licensed providers in addiction medicine. I assure you I have more familiarity here than even most addicts. But you win the victim totempole height contest I guess.
  - 0x00_NULL 2y ago
    That doesn’t clarify anything about your knowledge. The specialized hospital cleaning crews are in the ER every day and dozens of hours per week in the OR, but that doesn’t allow them to practice medicine or perform surgery. Proximity is not the same as practice. The medical practice (until a few years ago) was profoundly and intentionally misinformed about the addictiveness of Oxycodone and Oxycontin. You brought up a question about why people didn't learn from the Opioid Wars, but your flippant question could just as easily be applied to the MDs who wrote the prescriptions. Medical doctors are smart; they MUST know about the Opioid Wars and the horror the opium wrecked on Chinese society for centuries. Why would they prescribe such a dangerously addictive compound to injured and vulnerable people having the worst day of their lives? Instead, you blame patients with little choice (or capacity to evaluate choices) in a terrible situation. And, if you talked to any addicts, you'd sure find that the top of the "victim totempole" is actually really crowded with people who got there the exact same way. That is no coincidence. The fact of the matter is that Purdue intentionally misinformed everyone - doctors, patients, caregivers, and family. They used marketing, propaganda, bribes, recognition, and myriad other tools to convince everyone that their product was different. Doctors, knowing full well about the Opium Wars, wholeheartedly believed the propaganda. I wasn't the first patient to be discharged from the hospital with a multi-month supply of opioids. This was a common practice. The worst part is for someone who claims to be around addicts, you think I am somehow unique in my story. My story is so mundanely typical that it should be nauseating. Medical treatment is, by far, the most common way addicts start with opioids. 75% of all heroin users whose addictions started in the 2000s reported that it began with prescriptions from their doctors. https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/prescription-opioids-heroin/prescription-opioid-use-risk-factor-heroin-use https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/prescript... I genuinely suggest you spend some time talking to the addicts around you rather than judging them. You'd quickly come to regret the flippancy of your statement and probably have some empathy for their situation. These were regular people with jobs, families, lives, hopes, and dreams. In a crisis, they entrusted medical doctors to make the best medical decision for them, and the price they paid was their future.

voisin 2y ago

> We've known opiates were bad since at least the 1800s, and really longer than that. What the doc said was just what they needed to hear to lie to themselves, but this is taught in every highschool. I am not sure high schools are teaching people to be distrustful of their doctor’s advice. I think what’s being taught is about the dangers of illicit drugs, not those with a medical expert’s stamp of approval.

beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
On the plus side between oxy and COVID distrust is now at all time highs. People have learned you can't trust the doc anymore than a quik-lube mecanico.

tonyarkles 2y ago

> but this is taught in every high school Here's the thing about what they teach you about drugs in high school: lots of it is bullshit. I don't know if it's still a thing but when I was in school there was a lot of pearl clutching about weed being a Gateway Drug. For a lot of people who smoked weed and didn't progress towards any harder drugs, weed was a prime example of how drug education was a sham. No one went crazy, none of the weed horror stories came true, everyone enjoyed the concert and woke up the next morning feeling better than if they'd been drinking alcohol the night before.

com2kid 2y ago

> I blame the patient. We've known opiates were bad since at least the 1800s, and really longer than that. As a reminder, Oxy was heavily marketed, (to doctors!) as a "not bad" opioid. As in, not as addictive, not as problematic, and something that can be prescribed more easily and with less worries. If a doctor comes up and tell you "don't worry about this one, it isn't addictive like the others", and you are in a ton of pain at the time, you are going to thank modern medicine for its new miracle pain drug and accept the prescription. > but this is taught in every highschool. And as another reminder, most schools, until recently, just taught that "drugs are bad" and kind of left it at that. They exaggerated some of the down sides, and didn't mention any of the positive experiences. IMHO South Park actually did the world's best anti pot ad - "Well, Stan, the truth is marijuana probably isn't gonna make you kill people, and it most likely isn't gonna fund terrorism, but… well, son, pot makes you feel fine with being bored. And it's when you're bored that you should be learning some new skill or discovering some new science or being creative. If you smoke pot you may grow up to find out that you aren't good at anything." - And IMHO messages like that are more useful than what kids are being told. There is also the social contract side of things - Since around 1950s, if people worked hard they things in return from society: A stable job, a house, the opportunity to raise a family. That social contract is shot to shit, and so it should be no surprise that more and more people are choosing to drop out of society via drugs/games/apathy.

beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
You didn't learn about the opium wars? I'm not talking about dare which was obvious bullshit, I'm talking of learning from history. There was no weed war, that a drug caused a couple wars lasting decades should at least raise an eyebrow of any thinking person.
- com2kid 2y ago
  We didn't study the Opium Wars in history at all throughout my education, I learned about those on my own thanks to the Internet. The entire Middle East, our influence in South America, etc, none of that was covered in school, and I went to some pretty good public schools. (E.g. in High School we edited DNA of Bacteria) For that matter, I think China was only mentioned in passing throughout my entire education. WW1 was also only mentioned very briefly (maybe a couple weeks? Archduke is shot, shit goes down) and then we spent a fair bit of time on WW2, but less than we spent on Ancient Egypt honestly. (I think we spent an entire 2 or 3 months on Ancient Egypt). We spent a fair amount of time on the Reformation and Renaissance, ancient Greece and Rome, and US history was mostly a ~bullshit~ censored history of the founding of the US. The Washington State history classes went into some history of the local tribes, but failed to mention any of the fun details about how Seattle was founded (prostitution, drinking, Seattle literally poisoning the wells of nearby towns to force them to join Seattle to get access to clean water) College was better, mostly US history and World History, still nothing about the far east though. We did an excellent segment on the US Revolution in College, including the funding source behind the revolutionary war, that was very interesting. Edit: Sex ed was pretty comprehensive, and we ended the quarter by watching Rocky Horror Picture Show, so that was fun. (The Nerd and Goth kids formed a voting block for what movie to watch. :D) I am still surprised they talked about so much about forms of contraceptives that almost no one uses (spermicidal gels and foams), but at least they properly demonstrated how to use a condom, so that was good. For "don't smoke" the health teacher had lots of pictures of tumors. Alcohol wasn't really talked about, but honestly in the 90s we didn't know a much about how unhealthy it is as we do now. (Doctors knew it was bad, but just in the last few years research has come out showing that the safe amount of drinking is none)
- anigbrowl 2y ago

jnovek 2y ago

This is spoken like someone who has enjoyed the privilege of living without chronic pain.

beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
Of course, I speak from the pillar of privilege and but am a lowly untouchable on the great victimhood totempole. We should instead only listen to the high priest victims, uncontrollably fented our their minds to kill the pain. If you want to get rocked on opiates have at it, it's your body, just don't pretend you don't know they're addictive. It's ok to be an addict if you're honest to yourself about what's happening. Might even make sense if the pain is chronically awful.

0x00_NULL 2y ago

That’s gotta be the most ignorant opinion I’ve heard on the subject. This clearly is coming from someone who has had the benefit of good health, or hasn’t had the misfortune of a critical ER visit. When I got addicted to opioids, the doctors didn’t ask me what I wanted in the ER. I got Dilauded as they prepped the OR. I wasn’t lucid enough or cognizant enough to give informed consent. During my recovery, there wasn’t an option of alternate anything - I got a lot of morphine and then oxy. I was discharged 4 weeks later from the hospital with a 3 month prescription for 120mg of opioids per day. That would kill most people. My story is not unique. It is so common it could be a troupe. The doctors saved my life in one way, then discharged me into a hell of addiction that it took 9 months of serious determined effort to overcome. Then, some uninformed keyboard warrior like yourself comes along and blames people in my situation? Maybe you should have read a little less Opioid Wars and a little more Current Events. You clearly know nothing about this problem.

beaeglebeachedd 2y ago
I've worked in the ER, held a license to work there, and spend everyday with licensed providers in addiction medicine. I assure you I have more familiarity here than even most addicts. But you win the victim totempole height contest I guess.
- 0x00_NULL 2y ago
  That doesn’t clarify anything about your knowledge. The specialized hospital cleaning crews are in the ER every day and dozens of hours per week in the OR, but that doesn’t allow them to practice medicine or perform surgery. Proximity is not the same as practice. The medical practice (until a few years ago) was profoundly and intentionally misinformed about the addictiveness of Oxycodone and Oxycontin. You brought up a question about why people didn't learn from the Opioid Wars, but your flippant question could just as easily be applied to the MDs who wrote the prescriptions. Medical doctors are smart; they MUST know about the Opioid Wars and the horror the opium wrecked on Chinese society for centuries. Why would they prescribe such a dangerously addictive compound to injured and vulnerable people having the worst day of their lives? Instead, you blame patients with little choice (or capacity to evaluate choices) in a terrible situation. And, if you talked to any addicts, you'd sure find that the top of the "victim totempole" is actually really crowded with people who got there the exact same way. That is no coincidence. The fact of the matter is that Purdue intentionally misinformed everyone - doctors, patients, caregivers, and family. They used marketing, propaganda, bribes, recognition, and myriad other tools to convince everyone that their product was different. Doctors, knowing full well about the Opium Wars, wholeheartedly believed the propaganda. I wasn't the first patient to be discharged from the hospital with a multi-month supply of opioids. This was a common practice. The worst part is for someone who claims to be around addicts, you think I am somehow unique in my story. My story is so mundanely typical that it should be nauseating. Medical treatment is, by far, the most common way addicts start with opioids. 75% of all heroin users whose addictions started in the 2000s reported that it began with prescriptions from their doctors. https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/prescription-opioids-heroin/prescription-opioid-use-risk-factor-heroin-use https://nida.nih.gov/publications/research-reports/prescript... I genuinely suggest you spend some time talking to the addicts around you rather than judging them. You'd quickly come to regret the flippancy of your statement and probably have some empathy for their situation. These were regular people with jobs, families, lives, hopes, and dreams. In a crisis, they entrusted medical doctors to make the best medical decision for them, and the price they paid was their future.