6 ms·

What a fall from grace. An unstoppable company with a jaw dropping lineup of products, pride of the nation, destroyed by bean counters and MBAs within just 15 y

by ein0p 2y ago

What a fall from grace. An unstoppable company with a jaw dropping lineup of products, pride of the nation, destroyed by bean counters and MBAs within just 15 years or so. One would hope lessons would be learned, but one would then also be naive.

Bluestein 2y ago
It used to be an engineering and engineer company, back in its day.- PS. Sadly, not only the company is falling (from grace. The planes are also. Apart.-
- sbuttgereit 2y ago
  Ironic that the CEO that was substantially oversaw the development of Boeing as an "engineering company" was a lawyer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McPherson_Allen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McPherson_Allen
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    You don't have to be an engineer to appreciate the value of engineering. Also, a lawyer is more likely to think about risk and liability first and "shareholder value" later.
    - sbuttgereit 2y ago
      I agree. But thought it was worth mentioning because I'm not so sure everyone repeating the engineering company line understands that. Similarly, Boeing's decline is attributed quite frequently to the managerial descendants of Jack Welch. And Welch? Well he was... an engineer. A PhD in chemical engineering no less. Sometimes (often times) comments here over simplify the reality that underlies the real issues that need to be addressed. I think it's worth while to break the stereotypes and charactures that often time get used in arguments to either iconize or demonize various groups, depending on the viewpoint of the speaker. That tendency is the real problem with modern discourse.
Willish42 2y ago
Without naming names, I'm pretty concerned this is happening at practically every large tech company as we speak. It does not make me hopeful for the future of our critical digital infrastructure
- piva00 2y ago
  It's happening to a lot of large companies in general. Being gutted for short term profits, less care on providing good products/services and more on acquiring competition to foster growth while looking for "inefficiencies". Corporate consolidation, and a massive focus on finance create these abnormalities. Another pretty good example of that phenomenon on a different industry is Disney.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Yes. Nowadays I am glad if the 'rip here' on a plastic food container works. It seems like every engineering discipline is degrading to different extents. And non-functional food wrapping is my major annoyance. Every other bag of bbq coal have the threads sewed in the wrong way. Pasta bags that needs scissors to open or you'll have pasta everywhere. I can go on and on and on... I think engineering attrition is too high nowadays to keep institutional knowledge. Also about how to pack cookies...
  - supportengineer 2y ago
    I spend a lot of time on this - the social contract is collapsing everywhere
    - Bluestein 2y ago
      It is, I fear.-
    - amyjess 2y ago
      I've noticed after the last several years that we're starting to turn from a high-trust society into a low-trust one. Without spending too much time digressing on politics, it's my observation that Trump + covid are the main correlations. It started in 2015 when Trump declared his candidacy, picked up speed when he took office in 2017, and then hit full throttle when covid came to the US in 2020. And I'm afraid we've hit several points of no return, and there's no going back for decades.
ryandrake 2y ago
No lesson has been learned. These companies are all getting filled with people who look at words like "grace" and "pride" and "jaw dropping" and all they see is not-yet-captured margin for shareholders. They think, if we can just throw all these intangible things under the bus, we might be able to squeeze out another $0.06 per share for shareholders. "Pride of the nation?" That means we can cut costs by $3 million, and simply not be proud.
- akira2501 2y ago
  Which is a mindset that is only possible if you have no competition and if you have captured regulations to the point that new competition is highly unlikely to form. It's not unknown for companies to put "Goodwill" as a line item on their quarterly reports.
  - ryandrake 2y ago
    Competition makes it worse. It causes this race to the bottom, and forces companies to sacrifice everything they can at the altar of Shareholder Returns. Shareholders will sell companies who don't race to the bottom and buy companies who do.
- __loam 2y ago
  These are people who think everything can be measured, who are shocked when in it can't.
ralph84 2y ago
Jack Welch (via his disciples) managed to destroy not one but two iconic American companies.
- nickt 2y ago
  “ The Man Who Broke Capitalism” by David Gelles offers great insight into the man and his actions. It actually offers some solutions to the problems Welch caused. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59366216-the-man-who-broke-capitalism https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59366216-the-man-who-bro...
FredPret 2y ago
Bean counting and MBA'ing can be very valuable activities in the right hands. I think the problem is that business management is now seen as an abstract thing that you can study on its own and then step into any industry and start working the levers of leadership. But if a manager starts at the bottom, learns the trade inside and out, and then does an MBA-like analysis of their business, I think that can help optimize a business without ripping its foundation out.
hagbard_c 2y ago
From the Pride of the nation to the nation of Pride. This is not just a 'dumb' jab at identity politics (on which 'Pride' and similar phenomenons are built) but a factual description of how companies (this does not just touch Boeing) shifted their messaging from engineering prowess to how they champion 'diversity' and 'inclusion'. As to why they started doing that the answer is most likely multifold ranging from 'pressure from outside to raise the ESG rating [1]' via an internal push by more recent activist hires to - and this is probably one of the biggest factors - the realisation by those same bean counters and MBAs that it is a lot cheaper in the short run to gain the public eye by pandering to a few loud activist groups [2] than it is to do so through innovation, especially for companies which have a de-facto monopoly in their market segment, doubly so for companies which seem to have cemented that position by making themselves 'essential' to the national defence and triply so when executive bonuses are tied to hitting 'DEI' and 'climate' targets [3]. In the long run it will bring the company down but by that time the bonuses have been harvested and the executives have fled to new and richer pastures. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/company-esg-score-7480372 https://www.investopedia.com/company-esg-score-7480372 [2] https://jobs.boeing.com/diversity-and-inclusion https://jobs.boeing.com/diversity-and-inclusion [3] https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/de-i-compensation-committee-set-74708870.jpg https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/de-i-c...

by ein0p 2y ago

Bluestein 2y ago

It used to be an engineering and engineer company, back in its day.- PS. Sadly, not only the company is falling (from grace. The planes are also. Apart.-

sbuttgereit 2y ago
Ironic that the CEO that was substantially oversaw the development of Boeing as an "engineering company" was a lawyer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McPherson_Allen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_McPherson_Allen
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  You don't have to be an engineer to appreciate the value of engineering. Also, a lawyer is more likely to think about risk and liability first and "shareholder value" later.
  - sbuttgereit 2y ago
    I agree. But thought it was worth mentioning because I'm not so sure everyone repeating the engineering company line understands that. Similarly, Boeing's decline is attributed quite frequently to the managerial descendants of Jack Welch. And Welch? Well he was... an engineer. A PhD in chemical engineering no less. Sometimes (often times) comments here over simplify the reality that underlies the real issues that need to be addressed. I think it's worth while to break the stereotypes and charactures that often time get used in arguments to either iconize or demonize various groups, depending on the viewpoint of the speaker. That tendency is the real problem with modern discourse.

Willish42 2y ago

Without naming names, I'm pretty concerned this is happening at practically every large tech company as we speak. It does not make me hopeful for the future of our critical digital infrastructure

piva00 2y ago
It's happening to a lot of large companies in general. Being gutted for short term profits, less care on providing good products/services and more on acquiring competition to foster growth while looking for "inefficiencies". Corporate consolidation, and a massive focus on finance create these abnormalities. Another pretty good example of that phenomenon on a different industry is Disney.
rightbyte 2y ago
Yes. Nowadays I am glad if the 'rip here' on a plastic food container works. It seems like every engineering discipline is degrading to different extents. And non-functional food wrapping is my major annoyance. Every other bag of bbq coal have the threads sewed in the wrong way. Pasta bags that needs scissors to open or you'll have pasta everywhere. I can go on and on and on... I think engineering attrition is too high nowadays to keep institutional knowledge. Also about how to pack cookies...
- supportengineer 2y ago
  I spend a lot of time on this - the social contract is collapsing everywhere
  - Bluestein 2y ago
    It is, I fear.-
  - amyjess 2y ago
    I've noticed after the last several years that we're starting to turn from a high-trust society into a low-trust one. Without spending too much time digressing on politics, it's my observation that Trump + covid are the main correlations. It started in 2015 when Trump declared his candidacy, picked up speed when he took office in 2017, and then hit full throttle when covid came to the US in 2020. And I'm afraid we've hit several points of no return, and there's no going back for decades.

ryandrake 2y ago

No lesson has been learned. These companies are all getting filled with people who look at words like "grace" and "pride" and "jaw dropping" and all they see is not-yet-captured margin for shareholders. They think, if we can just throw all these intangible things under the bus, we might be able to squeeze out another $0.06 per share for shareholders. "Pride of the nation?" That means we can cut costs by $3 million, and simply not be proud.

akira2501 2y ago
Which is a mindset that is only possible if you have no competition and if you have captured regulations to the point that new competition is highly unlikely to form. It's not unknown for companies to put "Goodwill" as a line item on their quarterly reports.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  Competition makes it worse. It causes this race to the bottom, and forces companies to sacrifice everything they can at the altar of Shareholder Returns. Shareholders will sell companies who don't race to the bottom and buy companies who do.
__loam 2y ago
These are people who think everything can be measured, who are shocked when in it can't.

ralph84 2y ago

Jack Welch (via his disciples) managed to destroy not one but two iconic American companies.

nickt 2y ago
“ The Man Who Broke Capitalism” by David Gelles offers great insight into the man and his actions. It actually offers some solutions to the problems Welch caused. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59366216-the-man-who-broke-capitalism https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59366216-the-man-who-bro...

FredPret 2y ago

Bean counting and MBA'ing can be very valuable activities in the right hands. I think the problem is that business management is now seen as an abstract thing that you can study on its own and then step into any industry and start working the levers of leadership. But if a manager starts at the bottom, learns the trade inside and out, and then does an MBA-like analysis of their business, I think that can help optimize a business without ripping its foundation out.

hagbard_c 2y ago

From the Pride of the nation to the nation of Pride. This is not just a 'dumb' jab at identity politics (on which 'Pride' and similar phenomenons are built) but a factual description of how companies (this does not just touch Boeing) shifted their messaging from engineering prowess to how they champion 'diversity' and 'inclusion'. As to why they started doing that the answer is most likely multifold ranging from 'pressure from outside to raise the ESG rating [1]' via an internal push by more recent activist hires to - and this is probably one of the biggest factors - the realisation by those same bean counters and MBAs that it is a lot cheaper in the short run to gain the public eye by pandering to a few loud activist groups [2] than it is to do so through innovation, especially for companies which have a de-facto monopoly in their market segment, doubly so for companies which seem to have cemented that position by making themselves 'essential' to the national defence and triply so when executive bonuses are tied to hitting 'DEI' and 'climate' targets [3]. In the long run it will bring the company down but by that time the bonuses have been harvested and the executives have fled to new and richer pastures. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/company-esg-score-7480372 https://www.investopedia.com/company-esg-score-7480372 [2] https://jobs.boeing.com/diversity-and-inclusion https://jobs.boeing.com/diversity-and-inclusion [3] https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/de-i-compensation-committee-set-74708870.jpg https://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2024/01/de-i-c...