4 ms·

It's closer to: FDA orders bakers to list allergens. There are stiff penalties if you are allergenic but don't list the allergen. So? Bakers look at their pro

It's closer to: FDA orders bakers to list allergens. There are stiff penalties if you are allergenic but don't list the allergen. So? Bakers look at their production processes and determine there's a chance that enough allergens get into the product due to cross contamination to list it on the label, just in case. FDA doesn't like it. They expect the bakers to fix their cross-contamination issues at great expense to themselves. So? Bakers add allergens on purpose, so they can rightly claim it contains them. It's cheaper than setting up a clean room for every product line. FDA doesn't like it.

rufus_foreman 2y ago
The only way to fix cross-contamination issues is to have a different production facility for every possible combination of allergens. Which is insane. I worked in a factory that packaged food, if one product contained an allergen, there was no way you could guarantee that a tiny amount of that allergen wouldn't get into some amount of the next product on that production line. No way. Not any possible way. You can clean all you want, you can do whatever you want, you can mandate whatever procedures you want, but there's just no way. Even if every half-awake half-sober completely uncaring third shift production worker (like 1990's era me) does everything exactly right, which they won't, even if they actually cared to, which they won't. The FDA is putting manufacturers in an impossible position, and it's insane. I have food allergies, believe me, I get it. But there's just no way. If a manufacturing facility produces products with tree nuts, someone with an allergy to tree nuts has to treat every product produced in or near that facility as though it contains tree nuts. That's reality. The FDA is not dealing with reality. The problem here is the US federal government.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  It could be done, but you'd have to treat bread production like silicon wafer production. Bread would become very, very expensive.
  - thworp 2y ago
    Don't you start with that. It's the producers that have to bear the cost, if you just don't expand on what happens next, prices will stay the same! /s
- CoastalCoder 2y ago
  > The only way to fix cross-contamination issues is to have a different production facility for every possible combination of allergens. I don't think that's right. You don't necessarily need all 2^n kinds of facilities, because there might not be a commercial demand for products needing every one of those combos.
  - kgwgk 2y ago
    One may read "for every possible combination of allergens" as "for every combination of allergens present in the range of products being manufactured".
- morsch 2y ago
  It's hilarious to me that it's just a given that bread is made in a factory-like setting as opposed to an actual bakery. They still exist, and some of them just make plain bread, which means they don't handle nuts. I'm sure their product is more expensive, but it's not clean room, vacuum chamber expensive. An ecosystem of centralized, mass production of baked goods is part of the problem, at least.
  - ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
    I'd honestly trust the factory more than the local bakery if a single Sesame seed could kill me. At least at that scale, it'd both have to happen and I'd have to be the one to have it happen for. In a bakery the Sesame seed items would probably be made within 5ft of everything else. >They still exist, and some of them just make plain bread, Honestly have never seen this, every bakery bakes at least something else that can be described as more than just plain white bread.
    - morsch 2y ago
      Well, I live in Germany, so there's that. And admittedly it's quite rare, here, as well.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Out of curiosity, aren't there home use bread making machines in the US? I used one for quite a while, even though I don't have any food allergies. I just stopped because I was eating too much fresh out of the oven bread.
  - mort96 2y ago
    I mean that doesn't make a difference though? You wouldn't want a separate traditional bakery with a separate traditional baker for every combination of allergens either
- swatcoder 2y ago
  You're using industrial language to talk about food staples, and then suggest that the government is the problem. Bread is flour, water, yeast, and heat. It feeds people. It's easy to make anywhere you have those things, which is... almost everywhere. It doesn't require production lines or manufacturing facilities or packaging or even freight. All those things are artificial contrivances, and if they make it hard to practically address concerns like allergens, then maybe they're not a viable approach to providing foodstuffs after all.

rufus_foreman 2y ago

The only way to fix cross-contamination issues is to have a different production facility for every possible combination of allergens. Which is insane. I worked in a factory that packaged food, if one product contained an allergen, there was no way you could guarantee that a tiny amount of that allergen wouldn't get into some amount of the next product on that production line. No way. Not any possible way. You can clean all you want, you can do whatever you want, you can mandate whatever procedures you want, but there's just no way. Even if every half-awake half-sober completely uncaring third shift production worker (like 1990's era me) does everything exactly right, which they won't, even if they actually cared to, which they won't. The FDA is putting manufacturers in an impossible position, and it's insane. I have food allergies, believe me, I get it. But there's just no way. If a manufacturing facility produces products with tree nuts, someone with an allergy to tree nuts has to treat every product produced in or near that facility as though it contains tree nuts. That's reality. The FDA is not dealing with reality. The problem here is the US federal government.

shiroiushi 2y ago
It could be done, but you'd have to treat bread production like silicon wafer production. Bread would become very, very expensive.
- thworp 2y ago
  Don't you start with that. It's the producers that have to bear the cost, if you just don't expand on what happens next, prices will stay the same! /s
CoastalCoder 2y ago
> The only way to fix cross-contamination issues is to have a different production facility for every possible combination of allergens. I don't think that's right. You don't necessarily need all 2^n kinds of facilities, because there might not be a commercial demand for products needing every one of those combos.
- kgwgk 2y ago
  One may read "for every possible combination of allergens" as "for every combination of allergens present in the range of products being manufactured".
morsch 2y ago
It's hilarious to me that it's just a given that bread is made in a factory-like setting as opposed to an actual bakery. They still exist, and some of them just make plain bread, which means they don't handle nuts. I'm sure their product is more expensive, but it's not clean room, vacuum chamber expensive. An ecosystem of centralized, mass production of baked goods is part of the problem, at least.
- ApolloFortyNine 2y ago
  I'd honestly trust the factory more than the local bakery if a single Sesame seed could kill me. At least at that scale, it'd both have to happen and I'd have to be the one to have it happen for. In a bakery the Sesame seed items would probably be made within 5ft of everything else. >They still exist, and some of them just make plain bread, Honestly have never seen this, every bakery bakes at least something else that can be described as more than just plain white bread.
  - morsch 2y ago
    Well, I live in Germany, so there's that. And admittedly it's quite rare, here, as well.
- nottorp 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, aren't there home use bread making machines in the US? I used one for quite a while, even though I don't have any food allergies. I just stopped because I was eating too much fresh out of the oven bread.
- mort96 2y ago
  I mean that doesn't make a difference though? You wouldn't want a separate traditional bakery with a separate traditional baker for every combination of allergens either
swatcoder 2y ago
You're using industrial language to talk about food staples, and then suggest that the government is the problem. Bread is flour, water, yeast, and heat. It feeds people. It's easy to make anywhere you have those things, which is... almost everywhere. It doesn't require production lines or manufacturing facilities or packaging or even freight. All those things are artificial contrivances, and if they make it hard to practically address concerns like allergens, then maybe they're not a viable approach to providing foodstuffs after all.