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How is this unfortunate? Most programmers learn about loops pretty much at the absolute start of their development experience, where they don't yet have a way

How is this unfortunate? Most programmers learn about loops pretty much at the absolute start of their development experience, where they don't yet have a way to talk about recursion. Don't even start about tail recursion or tail recursion optimisation.

smaudet 2y ago
> where they don't yet have a way to talk about recursion. I'd like to know how its unfortunate as well, I'm not sure I agree with this though. int a = 0 begin: if a == 10 { jump :end } else { a = a + 1 jump :begin } end: The programmer will have learnt that programs have a beginning and an end, they will have some notion of a variable, its type, and manipulating their values. They will even likely have learnt conditional branching logic. The only new concept here is that of jumping areas of code. If you next introduce methods you can clean it up and illustrate it more cleanly: myFunc(int a) { if a == 10 { return } else { a = a + 1 return myFunc(a) } } myFunc(0) Finally you can explain the programmer "hey, there's this shortcut we can take called a loop that expresses this more succinctly": int a = 0 while (a != 10) { a = a + 1 } Nice simple-looking code. Yet this concept requires being able to grok much more than the relatively simple tail-recursive definition.
- dajtxx 2y ago
  I think most people learn about loops before they've learned about functions because your first example maps obviously to your last. I don't think your middle example would be obvious to most people learning about functions until they've had quite some time to get their heads around what functions do, even with the context of the top piece of code.
  - smaudet 2y ago
    > I think most people learn about loops before they've learned about functions That may be so, however I was taking issue with the idea that they couldn't possibly understand tail recursive functions first. Many (if not all) of the concepts that loops introduce also get introduced with functions (scoping, regions of code, stack parameters, jump return statements e.g. break/return). The programmers just may not have words for all of them with loops, however these concepts are usually explicitly covered with functions. Loops are particularly useful in applications of batch processing or indirectly for parallelization (again, actually functions are more useful here), so they may learn them for a business use case first, but that doesn't mean they couldn't learn to master both functions and tail recursive variants first. As a sibling commenter pointed out, if you were to come from math's background you might even naturally prefer this construct.
- rainsford 2y ago
  I suppose the order your introduce those examples in ultimately comes down to whether it's more important for the student to first understand what the computer is doing or how it is doing it. Most people don't start out thinking like computers, so I think it's probably more important for a new student to understand how code describes a particular series of operations and then help them translate that into how a computer "thinks" about those operations.
  - userbinator 2y ago
    Most people don't start out thinking like computers Everyone who has followed a sequential list of instructions would strongly disagree.
    - saurik 2y ago
      Which, FWIW, are almost never written using recursion: they are written with either imperative loops or the moral equivalent of a goto statement.
Zambyte 2y ago
Most people learning programming have already been exposed to function calling in math (f(x)=x+1). Recursion is not a very big jump semantically from this. Conditional loops are a (relatively) big jump.
- Jtsummers 2y ago
  > Conditional loops are a (relatively) big jump. I'd be very shocked if anyone past the age of 4 or 5 had never heard (and learned to understand) statements like "Wash your hands until they're clean" which is a conditional loop (wash your hands, check if they're still dirty, repeat if they are, stop otherwise). If a teen or adult learning to program has trouble with conditional loops, I'd be very very surprised. The translation into programming languages (syntax) may be a challenge, the correct logical expressions for their intent may be a challenge, but the concept should not be.
  - zelphirkalt 2y ago
    I happen to know (due to job), that many adults have problems grasping for loops (in Python) when learning programming. It is one of the main points where problems arise in programming introductions. It may all depend on how it is explained for what person, as different people understand different explanations better than others. Or it may be syntax related. Or that people for the first time fathom how they can make the computer do things in such a time saving manner. Who knows.
Farmadupe 2y ago
I feel like there's a semi-philosophical question somehwere here. Recursion is clearly a core computer science concept (see: many university courses, or even the low level implementation of many data structures), but it's surprisingly rare to see it in "day to day" code (i.e I probably don't write recursive code in a typical week, but I know it's in library code I depend on...) But why do you think we live in a world that likes to hide recursion? Why is it common for tree data structure APIs to expose visitors, rather than expecting you write your own recursive depth/breadth-first tree traversal? Is there something innate in human nature that makes recursion less comprehensible than looping? In my career I've met many programmers who don't 'do' recursion, but none who are scared of loops. And to me the weird thing about it is, looping is just a specialized form of recursion, so if you can wrap your head around a for loop it means you already understand tail call recursion.
- dajtxx 2y ago
  I don't agree with your last statement. I've been programming forever, and I understand recursion, and I use it, but I never equate it with loops in my mind (unless I'm deliberately thinking that way, like now) and I always find it more difficult to think about than loops.
  - dboreham 2y ago
    This is more about people feeling they are clever. It's the CS equivalent of "everything is an eigenvector".
- nomel 2y ago
  > but it's surprisingly rare to see it in "day to day" code I rarely use them because I became tired of having to explain them to others, where I've never had to explain a simple while loop that accomplishes the same thing with, usually literally, a couple more lines of code. From all of my experience, recursion is usually at the expense of clarity, and not needed. I think it's related to the door memory effect [1]: you loose the sense of state when hopping into the function, even though it's itself. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-walking-through-doorway-makes-you-forget/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-walking-throu...
zelphirkalt 2y ago
It is unfortunate, because many programmers develop some feeling of recursion being weird, more difficult or in any way worse than a loop, while this is mostly based on unfortunate language design and lack of familiarity with recursion. It also often comes along with fear of recursive data structures, which is holding programmers back and the products they make.

smaudet 2y ago

> where they don't yet have a way to talk about recursion. I'd like to know how its unfortunate as well, I'm not sure I agree with this though. int a = 0 begin: if a == 10 { jump :end } else { a = a + 1 jump :begin } end: The programmer will have learnt that programs have a beginning and an end, they will have some notion of a variable, its type, and manipulating their values. They will even likely have learnt conditional branching logic. The only new concept here is that of jumping areas of code. If you next introduce methods you can clean it up and illustrate it more cleanly: myFunc(int a) { if a == 10 { return } else { a = a + 1 return myFunc(a) } } myFunc(0) Finally you can explain the programmer "hey, there's this shortcut we can take called a loop that expresses this more succinctly": int a = 0 while (a != 10) { a = a + 1 } Nice simple-looking code. Yet this concept requires being able to grok much more than the relatively simple tail-recursive definition.

dajtxx 2y ago
I think most people learn about loops before they've learned about functions because your first example maps obviously to your last. I don't think your middle example would be obvious to most people learning about functions until they've had quite some time to get their heads around what functions do, even with the context of the top piece of code.
- smaudet 2y ago
  > I think most people learn about loops before they've learned about functions That may be so, however I was taking issue with the idea that they couldn't possibly understand tail recursive functions first. Many (if not all) of the concepts that loops introduce also get introduced with functions (scoping, regions of code, stack parameters, jump return statements e.g. break/return). The programmers just may not have words for all of them with loops, however these concepts are usually explicitly covered with functions. Loops are particularly useful in applications of batch processing or indirectly for parallelization (again, actually functions are more useful here), so they may learn them for a business use case first, but that doesn't mean they couldn't learn to master both functions and tail recursive variants first. As a sibling commenter pointed out, if you were to come from math's background you might even naturally prefer this construct.
rainsford 2y ago
I suppose the order your introduce those examples in ultimately comes down to whether it's more important for the student to first understand what the computer is doing or how it is doing it. Most people don't start out thinking like computers, so I think it's probably more important for a new student to understand how code describes a particular series of operations and then help them translate that into how a computer "thinks" about those operations.
- userbinator 2y ago
  Most people don't start out thinking like computers Everyone who has followed a sequential list of instructions would strongly disagree.
  - saurik 2y ago
    Which, FWIW, are almost never written using recursion: they are written with either imperative loops or the moral equivalent of a goto statement.

Zambyte 2y ago

Most people learning programming have already been exposed to function calling in math (f(x)=x+1). Recursion is not a very big jump semantically from this. Conditional loops are a (relatively) big jump.

Jtsummers 2y ago
> Conditional loops are a (relatively) big jump. I'd be very shocked if anyone past the age of 4 or 5 had never heard (and learned to understand) statements like "Wash your hands until they're clean" which is a conditional loop (wash your hands, check if they're still dirty, repeat if they are, stop otherwise). If a teen or adult learning to program has trouble with conditional loops, I'd be very very surprised. The translation into programming languages (syntax) may be a challenge, the correct logical expressions for their intent may be a challenge, but the concept should not be.
- zelphirkalt 2y ago
  I happen to know (due to job), that many adults have problems grasping for loops (in Python) when learning programming. It is one of the main points where problems arise in programming introductions. It may all depend on how it is explained for what person, as different people understand different explanations better than others. Or it may be syntax related. Or that people for the first time fathom how they can make the computer do things in such a time saving manner. Who knows.

Farmadupe 2y ago

I feel like there's a semi-philosophical question somehwere here. Recursion is clearly a core computer science concept (see: many university courses, or even the low level implementation of many data structures), but it's surprisingly rare to see it in "day to day" code (i.e I probably don't write recursive code in a typical week, but I know it's in library code I depend on...) But why do you think we live in a world that likes to hide recursion? Why is it common for tree data structure APIs to expose visitors, rather than expecting you write your own recursive depth/breadth-first tree traversal? Is there something innate in human nature that makes recursion less comprehensible than looping? In my career I've met many programmers who don't 'do' recursion, but none who are scared of loops. And to me the weird thing about it is, looping is just a specialized form of recursion, so if you can wrap your head around a for loop it means you already understand tail call recursion.

dajtxx 2y ago
I don't agree with your last statement. I've been programming forever, and I understand recursion, and I use it, but I never equate it with loops in my mind (unless I'm deliberately thinking that way, like now) and I always find it more difficult to think about than loops.
- dboreham 2y ago
  This is more about people feeling they are clever. It's the CS equivalent of "everything is an eigenvector".
nomel 2y ago
> but it's surprisingly rare to see it in "day to day" code I rarely use them because I became tired of having to explain them to others, where I've never had to explain a simple while loop that accomplishes the same thing with, usually literally, a couple more lines of code. From all of my experience, recursion is usually at the expense of clarity, and not needed. I think it's related to the door memory effect [1]: you loose the sense of state when hopping into the function, even though it's itself. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-walking-through-doorway-makes-you-forget/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-walking-throu...

zelphirkalt 2y ago

It is unfortunate, because many programmers develop some feeling of recursion being weird, more difficult or in any way worse than a loop, while this is mostly based on unfortunate language design and lack of familiarity with recursion. It also often comes along with fear of recursive data structures, which is holding programmers back and the products they make.