13 ms·

We can, but it's going to be technical. The layman's definition is -- "things we eat that bear little resemblance to the food we have evolved on" but wikipedia

We can, but it's going to be technical. The layman's definition is -- "things we eat that bear little resemblance to the food we have evolved on" but wikipedia says that Nova defines it as: Industrially manufactured food products made up of several ingredients (formulations) including sugar, oils, fats and salt (generally in combination and in higher amounts than in processed foods) and food substances of no or rare culinary use (such as high-fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, modified starches and protein isolates). Group 1 foods are absent or represent a small proportion of the ingredients in the formulation. Processes enabling the manufacture of ultra-processed foods include industrial techniques such as extrusion, moulding and pre-frying; application of additives including those whose function is to make the final product palatable or hyperpalatable such as flavours, colourants, non-sugar sweeteners and emulsifiers; and sophisticated packaging, usually with synthetic materials. Processes and ingredients here are designed to create highly profitable (low-cost ingredients, long shelf-life, emphatic branding), convenient (ready-to-(h)eat or to drink), tasteful alternatives to all other Nova food groups and to freshly prepared dishes and meals. Ultra-processed foods are operationally distinguishable from processed foods by the presence of food substances of no culinary use (varieties of sugars such as fructose, high-fructose corn syrup, 'fruit juice concentrates', invert sugar, maltodextrin, dextrose and lactose; modified starches; modified oils such as hydrogenated or interesterified oils; and protein sources such as hydrolysed proteins, soya protein isolate, gluten, casein, whey protein and 'mechanically separated meat') or of additives with cosmetic functions (flavours, flavour enhancers, colours, emulsifiers, emulsifying salts, sweeteners, thickeners and anti-foaming, bulking, carbonating, foaming, gelling and glazing agents) in their list of ingredients.[22]

theteapot 2y ago
So .. instant noodles are UPF? Please say no. That's basically 50%+ of what I eat (with veggies etc) and I think that's probably true for an entire generation of low income persons across South East Asia these days.
- matthewdgreen 2y ago
  Deep fried instant noodles are extremely bad for you. It’s possible to buy baked (non-fried) varieties and the only difference I’ve noticed is that the cooking time goes up by a few minutes.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    Noodles don't need to be fried or baked, and I would think that baking them would produce nasty acrylamide in even greater quantities than frying them does unless perhaps the baker is using carefully-controlled low temperatures, which it is unrealistic to assume an economically-motivated producer would do. But then maybe noodles do need to be fried or baked to have a long shelf life in hot weather when refrigeration is not available? But even in a hot climate, white flour has a long shelf-life, and a person without a refrigerator can make noodles from scratch like the Italians like to do. (The Italians tend to add eggs, but I am guessing grandparent has regular access to eggs.)
    - BobaFloutist 2y ago
      Suggesting scratch-made noodles as a reasonable alternative to instant noodles demonstrates an astonishing lack of understanding of the reason people eat instant noodles, not to mention the lack of reasoning it would take to deduce that people drawn to a product labeled "instant" are probably looking for something relatively quick.
      - hollerith 2y ago
        Astonishing.
- hollerith 2y ago
  I am just guessing here, not having studied the issue in depth, but someone whose ancestors lived in South East Asia (or East Asia), where rice has provided the majority of the calories for thousands of years, can probably remain healthy on a diet high in refined carbohydrates, a diet that is clearly unhealthy for me, whose ancestors come from Northern Europe where keeping cows and later pigs was a large part of the agricultural economy for the last 6,000 years or so (and before then there was a large supply of large animals available for hunting -- large animals that specialize in eating grass and therefore are not loaded with parasites the way that animals that sometimes eat meat are). I do much better when most of my calories come from fat and protein. But I do not partake in the ketosis fad: I eat a small amount of carbs with almost every meal, and if I don't, I get heart palpitations. (And I've seen studies showing the ketosis is a strain on the heart.)
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Are they made from brown rice and keep the bran and germ portions or from heavily processed white rice? Are they made from whole grain flour or processed white flower?
  - theteapot 2y ago
    I think you call instant noodles "Ramen" in US. Never heard of rice instant noodles before .. Typically [1]: > Noodle production starts with dissolving the salt, starch, and flavoring in water to form a mixture that is then added to the flour. The dough is then left for a period of time to mature, then for even distribution of the ingredients and hydration of the particles in the dough, it is kneaded. After it is kneaded, the dough is made into two sheets compounded into one single noodle belt by being put through two rotating rollers. This process is repeated to develop gluten more easily as the sheet is folded and passed through the rollers several times. This will create the stringy and chewy texture found in instant noodles. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_noodles#Production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_noodles#Production
    - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
      I guess I assumed people would consider ramen a highly processed food. USA instant ramen also often comes pre-fried. In the USA there's 'just soak in hot water' rice noodle packs though I normally use the soak in hot water mung bean noodles. Both of which would be considered highly processed.
      - theteapot 2y ago
        Process doesn't sound much different to some other types of pasta and bread. So I guess bread and pasta are UPF too? I think I'm safe with my Ramen ... Main thing that worries me is unintended contamination from cooking process and packaging TBH.
        _DeadFred_ 2y ago
        It's considered processed when the bran and germ layers are removed and you are left consuming only a small part of the original foodstuff (with all the fiber and most nutrition removed). Most instant ramen is also fried, which then adds a lot of trans fats that would have never been part of historical food (trans fats are industrially created fats that taste really good but the main consideration for manufacturers is they have a long shelf life and are cheap to manufacture). I think a problem being shown in is we are so many layers deep into processing it's confusing what is being discussed. I'd really try not to eat individually packaged ramen that's for sure, especially cup-o-soup style where you then add the layer of cooking in the cheapest container made for shipping and cost savings more than it's qualities as a safe cooking surface.
- turtlebits 2y ago
  Absolutely, have you ever looked at the number of ingredients in instant noodles? I've started to looked at packaged food ingredients and now avoid foods with added phosphates and nitrates.
Exuma 2y ago
Is that protein isolate different than my isolated whey protein workout shake
- alan-hn 2y ago
  No, but I think protein isolate does have a use in the context of athletes
dragontamer 2y ago
> "things we eat that bear little resemblance to the food we have evolved on" Okay. So are we ready to ban bread? Is that really what you're proposing? Or white-rice? > Industrially manufactured food products made up of several ingredients (formulations) including sugar, oils, fats and salt (generally in combination and in higher amounts than in processed foods) and food substances of no or rare culinary use (such as high-fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, modified starches and protein isolates). So Lays potato chips (only Potatoes, Oil, and Salt on the ingredients list) don't need a warning label? McDonalds fries and potato chips are fine because they're all natural ingredients, amirite?
- milchek 2y ago
  Not here to argue your point, just to note that McDonalds fries are not as natural as people think, ie. most people assume they’re just potatoes fried in some oil. “French Fries Ingredients: Potatoes, Vegetable Oil (canola Oil, Corn Oil, Soybean Oil, Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Natural Beef Flavor [wheat And Milk Derivatives]), Dextrose, Sodium Acid Pyrophosphate (maintain Color), Salt. natural Beef Flavor Contains Hydrolyzed Wheat And Hydrolyzed Milk As Starting Ingredients. Contains: Wheat, Milk.” Source: https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/product/small-french-fries.html#accordion-c921f9207b-item-283bee7dbd https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/product/small-french-frie...
  - dragontamer 2y ago
    Fair. I guess replace my earlier comment with Five Guys fries then. https://www.fiveguys.com/-/media/public-site/files/allergen-ingredients-and-nutrition-info/allergen-guide/nutrition-allergen-march-2018-us.ashx https://www.fiveguys.com/-/media/public-site/files/allergen-... > Five Guys Style [Fries]: Potatoes, Refined Peanut Oil, Salt Its gonna make you fat and clog your arteries either way. ---------- My point is that "processing" food doesn't seem to make it more, or less, healthy. The amount of "processing" that Pasta has (Dry the Flour, Wet the Flour, Dry the Pasta, Wet the Pasta/Boil it, and sometimes further Drying+Wetting steps after that) is one of those running jokes in culinary circles.
    - 2y ago

theteapot 2y ago

So .. instant noodles are UPF? Please say no. That's basically 50%+ of what I eat (with veggies etc) and I think that's probably true for an entire generation of low income persons across South East Asia these days.

matthewdgreen 2y ago
Deep fried instant noodles are extremely bad for you. It’s possible to buy baked (non-fried) varieties and the only difference I’ve noticed is that the cooking time goes up by a few minutes.
- hollerith 2y ago
  Noodles don't need to be fried or baked, and I would think that baking them would produce nasty acrylamide in even greater quantities than frying them does unless perhaps the baker is using carefully-controlled low temperatures, which it is unrealistic to assume an economically-motivated producer would do. But then maybe noodles do need to be fried or baked to have a long shelf life in hot weather when refrigeration is not available? But even in a hot climate, white flour has a long shelf-life, and a person without a refrigerator can make noodles from scratch like the Italians like to do. (The Italians tend to add eggs, but I am guessing grandparent has regular access to eggs.)
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    Suggesting scratch-made noodles as a reasonable alternative to instant noodles demonstrates an astonishing lack of understanding of the reason people eat instant noodles, not to mention the lack of reasoning it would take to deduce that people drawn to a product labeled "instant" are probably looking for something relatively quick.
    - hollerith 2y ago
      Astonishing.
hollerith 2y ago
I am just guessing here, not having studied the issue in depth, but someone whose ancestors lived in South East Asia (or East Asia), where rice has provided the majority of the calories for thousands of years, can probably remain healthy on a diet high in refined carbohydrates, a diet that is clearly unhealthy for me, whose ancestors come from Northern Europe where keeping cows and later pigs was a large part of the agricultural economy for the last 6,000 years or so (and before then there was a large supply of large animals available for hunting -- large animals that specialize in eating grass and therefore are not loaded with parasites the way that animals that sometimes eat meat are). I do much better when most of my calories come from fat and protein. But I do not partake in the ketosis fad: I eat a small amount of carbs with almost every meal, and if I don't, I get heart palpitations. (And I've seen studies showing the ketosis is a strain on the heart.)
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Are they made from brown rice and keep the bran and germ portions or from heavily processed white rice? Are they made from whole grain flour or processed white flower?
- theteapot 2y ago
  I think you call instant noodles "Ramen" in US. Never heard of rice instant noodles before .. Typically [1]: > Noodle production starts with dissolving the salt, starch, and flavoring in water to form a mixture that is then added to the flour. The dough is then left for a period of time to mature, then for even distribution of the ingredients and hydration of the particles in the dough, it is kneaded. After it is kneaded, the dough is made into two sheets compounded into one single noodle belt by being put through two rotating rollers. This process is repeated to develop gluten more easily as the sheet is folded and passed through the rollers several times. This will create the stringy and chewy texture found in instant noodles. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_noodles#Production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_noodles#Production
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    I guess I assumed people would consider ramen a highly processed food. USA instant ramen also often comes pre-fried. In the USA there's 'just soak in hot water' rice noodle packs though I normally use the soak in hot water mung bean noodles. Both of which would be considered highly processed.
    - theteapot 2y ago
      Process doesn't sound much different to some other types of pasta and bread. So I guess bread and pasta are UPF too? I think I'm safe with my Ramen ... Main thing that worries me is unintended contamination from cooking process and packaging TBH.
      - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
        It's considered processed when the bran and germ layers are removed and you are left consuming only a small part of the original foodstuff (with all the fiber and most nutrition removed). Most instant ramen is also fried, which then adds a lot of trans fats that would have never been part of historical food (trans fats are industrially created fats that taste really good but the main consideration for manufacturers is they have a long shelf life and are cheap to manufacture). I think a problem being shown in is we are so many layers deep into processing it's confusing what is being discussed. I'd really try not to eat individually packaged ramen that's for sure, especially cup-o-soup style where you then add the layer of cooking in the cheapest container made for shipping and cost savings more than it's qualities as a safe cooking surface.
turtlebits 2y ago
Absolutely, have you ever looked at the number of ingredients in instant noodles? I've started to looked at packaged food ingredients and now avoid foods with added phosphates and nitrates.

Exuma 2y ago

Is that protein isolate different than my isolated whey protein workout shake

alan-hn 2y ago
No, but I think protein isolate does have a use in the context of athletes

dragontamer 2y ago

> "things we eat that bear little resemblance to the food we have evolved on" Okay. So are we ready to ban bread? Is that really what you're proposing? Or white-rice? > Industrially manufactured food products made up of several ingredients (formulations) including sugar, oils, fats and salt (generally in combination and in higher amounts than in processed foods) and food substances of no or rare culinary use (such as high-fructose corn syrup, hydrogenated oils, modified starches and protein isolates). So Lays potato chips (only Potatoes, Oil, and Salt on the ingredients list) don't need a warning label? McDonalds fries and potato chips are fine because they're all natural ingredients, amirite?

milchek 2y ago
Not here to argue your point, just to note that McDonalds fries are not as natural as people think, ie. most people assume they’re just potatoes fried in some oil. “French Fries Ingredients: Potatoes, Vegetable Oil (canola Oil, Corn Oil, Soybean Oil, Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Natural Beef Flavor [wheat And Milk Derivatives]), Dextrose, Sodium Acid Pyrophosphate (maintain Color), Salt. natural Beef Flavor Contains Hydrolyzed Wheat And Hydrolyzed Milk As Starting Ingredients. Contains: Wheat, Milk.” Source: https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/product/small-french-fries.html#accordion-c921f9207b-item-283bee7dbd https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/product/small-french-frie...
- dragontamer 2y ago
  Fair. I guess replace my earlier comment with Five Guys fries then. https://www.fiveguys.com/-/media/public-site/files/allergen-ingredients-and-nutrition-info/allergen-guide/nutrition-allergen-march-2018-us.ashx https://www.fiveguys.com/-/media/public-site/files/allergen-... > Five Guys Style [Fries]: Potatoes, Refined Peanut Oil, Salt Its gonna make you fat and clog your arteries either way. ---------- My point is that "processing" food doesn't seem to make it more, or less, healthy. The amount of "processing" that Pasta has (Dry the Flour, Wet the Flour, Dry the Pasta, Wet the Pasta/Boil it, and sometimes further Drying+Wetting steps after that) is one of those running jokes in culinary circles.
  - 2y ago