5 ms·

Well they are male, just like any other male. How a person dresses or is named doesn't change their sex. It really doesn't matter what someone wears or what the

Well they are male, just like any other male. How a person dresses or is named doesn't change their sex. It really doesn't matter what someone wears or what they call themselves. Hence the issue with (most of) this subset of males demanding to use female spaces. These spaces aren't for them.

spencerflem 2y ago
I mean that's the question, right? Because while sex is biological (and there are biologically intersex people) gender is cultural & down to presentation. It's how its easy to imagine a boyish girl or vice versa. Nothing there is precisely defined. For almost everything, gender is what matters. People make a fuss about drag queens and effeminate men and shemales and all sorts of things that are purely gender expression. To the point where yeah, there are Some rare cases where biological gender is important, mostly in medicine, but most of the time its gender that we see and care about. What the trans people I know want is to be recognized as having the gender that fits with them. You wouldn't call a cis woman a 'female' in normal conversation, so why call trans-women 'males' when there's already two good ways to refer to them, 'trans women' when it matters or 'women' when it doesn't. But you seem to refuse to do that. So rather than debunk the "dangers of the scary transexual pervert" myth (when in actuality the more common violence happens to the trans people) I instead ask if that's really the only problem you have with trans people. Are you actually willing to recognize that they feel as strongly as their chosen gender as you do with your own, and that it hurts them to be demonized and misunderstood by society. Because I will admit that there Is some discussion, especially around sports, but the vast majority of time thats trotted out the underlying reason isn't some theoretical virtue of fairness but instead a rejection of the possibility of changing ones gender altogether.
- turtle_heck 2y ago
  > What the trans people I know want is to be recognized as having the gender that fits with them. You wouldn't call a cis woman a 'female' in normal conversation, so why call trans-women 'males' when there's already two good ways to refer to them, 'trans women' when it matters or 'women' when it doesn't. > But you seem to refuse to do that. I don't understand why I am expected to partake in their delusion.
- Izkata 2y ago
  I'm not sure if this is strawman or motte-and-bailey (leaning towards the latter), but you are continuing to ignore the group of people we're talking about and are instead only referring to a different and much easier to defend group that we're not talking about.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    I hope not either. If I understand the conversation correctly, you have been talking about "transtrender", ie. people who do not experience body dysmorphia, or at least not diagnosably, and yet still want to be treated the same as other 'legitimate' trans people. Kinda saying that if you aren't really willing to go through what it takes to Actually become trans (medically) then you're just following a trend. I think I replied to that as best I could with three points as to why I don't think doing that is harmful to anyone. Green Badger brought out the standard trifecta of anti-trans gotchas, including ones about how horrible it is that people are getting surgeries, so it's clear they're not talking about transtrenders like you were. My response to that (imo mostly unrelated) comment wasn't even an argument as much as trying to point out that focusing on these issues is a distraction from the underlying point that they just don't seem to believe a person can be trans at all. Anyways, if you have a specific argument or question I'm happy to try to answer if but I think I've said all I can, and if that's not good enough, I'm sorry. Only bothering to say it at all to try to make the world a little bit nicer and safer for my friends in Florida rn who are dealing with a Lot from the government
- greenbadger 2y ago
  > gender is cultural & down to presentation Or in other words: rigid, reductive ideas of what it means to be female versus male. What the trans activist movement has done is redefine "woman" as being someone who identifies with sexist stereotypes about women, "man" as someone who identifies with stereotypes about men, and so on. While also claiming that everyone has an identity that aligns with sexist stereotypes and this is more important than sex. It's just the same sexism that social conservatives champion, but modified so that instead of saying that women (female) and men (male) have to conform to cultural stereotypes of each sex, they are instead defined by these sexist stereotypes regardless of sex. From "women should wear dresses and makeup" to "the people who want to wear dresses and makeup are women". And on the back of this misogynistic nonsense, insisting that single-sex spaces should be reorganized on this basis. Then getting this implemented in law and policy. > so why call trans-women 'males' Firstly because males in female spaces is the actual contentious issue. Secondly because it was an attempt to avoid a prolonged discussion of arguing if "woman" means adult female of the human species, which is the common understanding, or whether "woman" is the word used to describe anyone who identifies with the set of sexist stereotypes that are typically imposed upon female individuals. Thirdly to avoid being sidetracked by complaints of "misgendering" if I refer to them as men. > Are you actually willing to recognize that they feel as strongly as their chosen gender as you do with your own I'm willing to recognize that some males have an obsessive desire to be women, one that is based upon their male gaze perspective of women. This does not somehow transform them into women, and there is no good reason why actual women and girls should be expected to accommodate these males who desire to be women in female spaces. > and that it hurts them to be demonized and misunderstood by society Then let them take the first step towards avoiding this, by taking responsibility for their actions and voluntarily refraining from any attempt to use spaces designated for the sole use of the opposite sex.
  - spencerflem 2y ago
    What's your take on non-binary? Here's my opinion on gender, as someone who isn't trans, and truthfully doesn't care about gender that much myself tbh: I feel like everyone has their own idea of what it feels like to be them, how they want to present, whether their body feels comfortable and correct, how they like the sound of their voice etc. So in that sense, it's not either: You are a woman because of biology, therefore you are (stereotypes) or the alternative you mentioned: You are (stereotypes) therefore you are a woman, but instead: I am a woman (as I define it for myself) and would like to be treated as such by the world (ie. using preferred pronouns) . For some trans people I know, 'passing' as the other gender feels great, like they're they're finally seen as who they want to be, and for some I know, passing isnt the point. They have their own definition of their gender, one I know is on HRT but prefers to be referred to with "they/them" since they dont feel like either gender fits them. FWIW - I agree that there's tons of stereotypes, many are very obviously harmful "a woman can't be a doctor" and many are harmful by undermining their view of themselves "a woman must wear dresses" or "a woman must be gentle", but I don't really connect what this has to do with trans people. What you're saying is basically: "a woman must have been born biologically female" and I don't really see what adding that restriction helps with. > I'm willing to recognize that some males have an obsessive desire to be women, one that is based upon their male gaze perspective of women. This does not somehow transform them into women, and there is no good reason why actual women and girls should be expected to accommodate these males who desire to be women in female spaces. The point is not to sneak into women's spaces, the point is that this is how they feel about themselves. They want to be a woman in every space. It means a lot to them and is an easy accommodation (just call them their preferred pronoun an honorific) To your point on biological-women's-only spaces, this is imo. a distraction. Anti-trans people like to act like this is their one concern, and they just care about the safety of woman who might be assaulted by perverts in places where they should be safe etc. But this is in absolutely no way the only thing anti-trans people are doing. Medical care like HRT is being restricted in lots of states, and is likely to happen federally. Places like Florida make it a crime for teachers to state their own preferred pronouns to their class. Drag shows are being banned (literally just makeup). The point is clearly to criminalize and stigmatize the idea of being trans. And I'll ask you this: I have a trans friend who is small, has been taking HRT long enough to have all the biological markers of a woman, dresses like a woman, calls themselves a woman, has female hormones etc. should be exclusively in biologically male spaces? And while my trans masc friends happen to be more androgynous, you'd prefer for women's only spaces to feature people who look like this? https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/04/manmade01_courtesy.jpg https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/...

spencerflem 2y ago

I mean that's the question, right? Because while sex is biological (and there are biologically intersex people) gender is cultural & down to presentation. It's how its easy to imagine a boyish girl or vice versa. Nothing there is precisely defined. For almost everything, gender is what matters. People make a fuss about drag queens and effeminate men and shemales and all sorts of things that are purely gender expression. To the point where yeah, there are Some rare cases where biological gender is important, mostly in medicine, but most of the time its gender that we see and care about. What the trans people I know want is to be recognized as having the gender that fits with them. You wouldn't call a cis woman a 'female' in normal conversation, so why call trans-women 'males' when there's already two good ways to refer to them, 'trans women' when it matters or 'women' when it doesn't. But you seem to refuse to do that. So rather than debunk the "dangers of the scary transexual pervert" myth (when in actuality the more common violence happens to the trans people) I instead ask if that's really the only problem you have with trans people. Are you actually willing to recognize that they feel as strongly as their chosen gender as you do with your own, and that it hurts them to be demonized and misunderstood by society. Because I will admit that there Is some discussion, especially around sports, but the vast majority of time thats trotted out the underlying reason isn't some theoretical virtue of fairness but instead a rejection of the possibility of changing ones gender altogether.

turtle_heck 2y ago
> What the trans people I know want is to be recognized as having the gender that fits with them. You wouldn't call a cis woman a 'female' in normal conversation, so why call trans-women 'males' when there's already two good ways to refer to them, 'trans women' when it matters or 'women' when it doesn't. > But you seem to refuse to do that. I don't understand why I am expected to partake in their delusion.
Izkata 2y ago
I'm not sure if this is strawman or motte-and-bailey (leaning towards the latter), but you are continuing to ignore the group of people we're talking about and are instead only referring to a different and much easier to defend group that we're not talking about.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  I hope not either. If I understand the conversation correctly, you have been talking about "transtrender", ie. people who do not experience body dysmorphia, or at least not diagnosably, and yet still want to be treated the same as other 'legitimate' trans people. Kinda saying that if you aren't really willing to go through what it takes to Actually become trans (medically) then you're just following a trend. I think I replied to that as best I could with three points as to why I don't think doing that is harmful to anyone. Green Badger brought out the standard trifecta of anti-trans gotchas, including ones about how horrible it is that people are getting surgeries, so it's clear they're not talking about transtrenders like you were. My response to that (imo mostly unrelated) comment wasn't even an argument as much as trying to point out that focusing on these issues is a distraction from the underlying point that they just don't seem to believe a person can be trans at all. Anyways, if you have a specific argument or question I'm happy to try to answer if but I think I've said all I can, and if that's not good enough, I'm sorry. Only bothering to say it at all to try to make the world a little bit nicer and safer for my friends in Florida rn who are dealing with a Lot from the government
greenbadger 2y ago
> gender is cultural & down to presentation Or in other words: rigid, reductive ideas of what it means to be female versus male. What the trans activist movement has done is redefine "woman" as being someone who identifies with sexist stereotypes about women, "man" as someone who identifies with stereotypes about men, and so on. While also claiming that everyone has an identity that aligns with sexist stereotypes and this is more important than sex. It's just the same sexism that social conservatives champion, but modified so that instead of saying that women (female) and men (male) have to conform to cultural stereotypes of each sex, they are instead defined by these sexist stereotypes regardless of sex. From "women should wear dresses and makeup" to "the people who want to wear dresses and makeup are women". And on the back of this misogynistic nonsense, insisting that single-sex spaces should be reorganized on this basis. Then getting this implemented in law and policy. > so why call trans-women 'males' Firstly because males in female spaces is the actual contentious issue. Secondly because it was an attempt to avoid a prolonged discussion of arguing if "woman" means adult female of the human species, which is the common understanding, or whether "woman" is the word used to describe anyone who identifies with the set of sexist stereotypes that are typically imposed upon female individuals. Thirdly to avoid being sidetracked by complaints of "misgendering" if I refer to them as men. > Are you actually willing to recognize that they feel as strongly as their chosen gender as you do with your own I'm willing to recognize that some males have an obsessive desire to be women, one that is based upon their male gaze perspective of women. This does not somehow transform them into women, and there is no good reason why actual women and girls should be expected to accommodate these males who desire to be women in female spaces. > and that it hurts them to be demonized and misunderstood by society Then let them take the first step towards avoiding this, by taking responsibility for their actions and voluntarily refraining from any attempt to use spaces designated for the sole use of the opposite sex.
- spencerflem 2y ago
  What's your take on non-binary? Here's my opinion on gender, as someone who isn't trans, and truthfully doesn't care about gender that much myself tbh: I feel like everyone has their own idea of what it feels like to be them, how they want to present, whether their body feels comfortable and correct, how they like the sound of their voice etc. So in that sense, it's not either: You are a woman because of biology, therefore you are (stereotypes) or the alternative you mentioned: You are (stereotypes) therefore you are a woman, but instead: I am a woman (as I define it for myself) and would like to be treated as such by the world (ie. using preferred pronouns) . For some trans people I know, 'passing' as the other gender feels great, like they're they're finally seen as who they want to be, and for some I know, passing isnt the point. They have their own definition of their gender, one I know is on HRT but prefers to be referred to with "they/them" since they dont feel like either gender fits them. FWIW - I agree that there's tons of stereotypes, many are very obviously harmful "a woman can't be a doctor" and many are harmful by undermining their view of themselves "a woman must wear dresses" or "a woman must be gentle", but I don't really connect what this has to do with trans people. What you're saying is basically: "a woman must have been born biologically female" and I don't really see what adding that restriction helps with. > I'm willing to recognize that some males have an obsessive desire to be women, one that is based upon their male gaze perspective of women. This does not somehow transform them into women, and there is no good reason why actual women and girls should be expected to accommodate these males who desire to be women in female spaces. The point is not to sneak into women's spaces, the point is that this is how they feel about themselves. They want to be a woman in every space. It means a lot to them and is an easy accommodation (just call them their preferred pronoun an honorific) To your point on biological-women's-only spaces, this is imo. a distraction. Anti-trans people like to act like this is their one concern, and they just care about the safety of woman who might be assaulted by perverts in places where they should be safe etc. But this is in absolutely no way the only thing anti-trans people are doing. Medical care like HRT is being restricted in lots of states, and is likely to happen federally. Places like Florida make it a crime for teachers to state their own preferred pronouns to their class. Drag shows are being banned (literally just makeup). The point is clearly to criminalize and stigmatize the idea of being trans. And I'll ask you this: I have a trans friend who is small, has been taking HRT long enough to have all the biological markers of a woman, dresses like a woman, calls themselves a woman, has female hormones etc. should be exclusively in biologically male spaces? And while my trans masc friends happen to be more androgynous, you'd prefer for women's only spaces to feature people who look like this? https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/04/manmade01_courtesy.jpg https://cdn2.atlantamagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/...