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Ok I get what people are saying, but you are describing the common case, where guilt is in question. I'm talking about the parent comment which is saying "even

Ok I get what people are saying, but you are describing the common case, where guilt is in question. I'm talking about the parent comment which is saying "even if someone is known to be guilty they still deserve defense." You're talking about the common case -- where there is doubt to guilt and/or someone maintains innocence. Do you also believe someone who admits guilt should still be defended (e.g. hide this fact from the jury and proceed as though they didn't admit to the crime)? The only reason for defending someone is because they may be innocent, there is no advantage to excusing a guilty person. Or do you believe there is an advantage to excusing the guilty? I also understand why we have our current system, and that there may be false positives, I'm merely commenting on the fact that we should not defend those that are 100% known to be guilty (and I'm not claiming that its easy to ascertain, but that in cases where people plead/confess, maybe its for the best).

ryandrake 2y ago
Let's enter fantasy land for a moment and assume that we even can ascertain whether someone is "100% known to be guilty" without a trial. Say we have a crystal ball that we can just ask. That person still is entitled to representation to ensure that all the proper procedure was followed (was the law somehow broken when the crystal ball was consulted? was the crystal ball accurately calibrated and configured? is it a real crystal ball and not a knock-off that always says "guilty"?). Even if there was no crystal ball! The defendant admitted and signed a confession. He still needs a defense. Was the confession forced or obtained under duress? Did the defendant know what he was confessing to? And even if there was no crystal ball, the defendant confessed voluntarily and understood fully what he confessed to, cooperatively admitted everything to the point where there is zero chance of reasonable doubt. He still needs a defense. Who is going to ensure that a fair punishment is imposed? Without a defense attorney and proper procedure, what stops the judge from simply imposing the maximum sentence for everyone?
- program_whiz 2y ago
  Thanks this changed my mind and I agree with your assessment.

ryandrake 2y ago

Let's enter fantasy land for a moment and assume that we even can ascertain whether someone is "100% known to be guilty" without a trial. Say we have a crystal ball that we can just ask. That person still is entitled to representation to ensure that all the proper procedure was followed (was the law somehow broken when the crystal ball was consulted? was the crystal ball accurately calibrated and configured? is it a real crystal ball and not a knock-off that always says "guilty"?). Even if there was no crystal ball! The defendant admitted and signed a confession. He still needs a defense. Was the confession forced or obtained under duress? Did the defendant know what he was confessing to? And even if there was no crystal ball, the defendant confessed voluntarily and understood fully what he confessed to, cooperatively admitted everything to the point where there is zero chance of reasonable doubt. He still needs a defense. Who is going to ensure that a fair punishment is imposed? Without a defense attorney and proper procedure, what stops the judge from simply imposing the maximum sentence for everyone?

program_whiz 2y ago
Thanks this changed my mind and I agree with your assessment.