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I dunno, Steve Jobs was famously an asshole. Apple couldn't exist if every manager acted like him, but would it exist if he didn't? Tho unfortunately, that wr

I dunno, Steve Jobs was famously an asshole. Apple couldn't exist if every manager acted like him, but would it exist if he didn't? Tho unfortunately, that writes a blank check to all too many CEOs who think they're Steve Jobs when they're just an asshole. Shockingly, it's almost like a slogan on a book cover isn't enough.

squigz 2y ago
> Steve Jobs was famously an asshole. Apple couldn't exist if every manager acted like him, but would it exist if he didn't? Is there any reason to believe it wouldn't?
- kortilla 2y ago
  Yes. That’s a completely different type of CEO. If he wasn’t an asshole he might have spent time with his daughter and maybe not came back to Apple at all when it was failing.
  - hliyan 2y ago
    And maybe we would have a more diverse ecosystem of mobile platforms and companies today, although nothing quite as fancy as Apple's. Perhaps we also won't have hundreds, if not thousands of founders mistreating their employees under the delusion that they are fashioning themselves after Steve Jobs.
    - chuckadams 2y ago
      Yes, I'm sure it would be all sunshine and rainbows without the Great Fruit Satan around. The point is the company as it is today probably wouldn't exist.
      - squigz 2y ago
        The question is what evidence suggests that Jobs being an asshole led to Apple's success?
        kortilla 2y ago
        There isn’t any. The only evidence is that everything about Steve Jobs, good and bad, produced the successful outcome. There is no reason to think fundamentally altering his personality and therefore the entire way he interacted with and ultimately selected leadership underneath him would not drastically change the outcome.
        squigz 2y ago
        Well I don't think it wouldn't change the outcome - I just don't agree that it would necessarily mean Apple would be less successful. In fact, I might argue it would probably have been more successful had he not been an asshole - because I don't see how his vision about technology was dependant on him being an asshole.
        kortilla 2y ago
        There are people that react well to pressure. All of his directs were made up of those kind of people. These people view a leader focused on being nice as “weak” or “lacking backbone” so they flounder and wash out of environments like that. There is no reason to think apple would be better if it was effectively run by entirely different leadership.
      - Bluestein 2y ago
        > The question is what evidence suggests that Jobs being an asshole led to Apple's success? Could this be measured?
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  Steve Jobs founded Apple, so my bet is it wouldn't have existed without him.
  - squigz 2y ago
    Pedantry really has no place here. The question was whether Apple would exist as it is (i.e., as successful as it is) if Jobs were not an asshole. It was not whether it would exist at all if he didn't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
- saint_fiasco 2y ago
  He ceased being the CEO for a while, and then he was CEO again. They had no choice the first time (he was the founder), but the second time they must have thought the risk and annoyance of having an asshole CEO were worth it.
  - BurningFrog 2y ago
    He was also CEO of NeXT and Pixar in between the Apple gigs.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Bluestein 2y ago
> but would it exist if he didn't? But was the rise of Apple contingent on Job's assholehood, itself? ... that is was his (documented) assholehood sine qua non?
hliyan 2y ago
Decency comes at a cost. I'm sure greater things could be achieved if we discard it (perhaps the Pyramids, the Taj Mahal and the Nazi science/tech accomplishments are examples).
- Bluestein 2y ago
  I get and respect your point, but ... ouch.-
- JohnFen 2y ago
  I think the thing that drives achievements is assertiveness and confidence. You can have those without having an asshole nature.
  - Bluestein 2y ago
    > You can have those without having an asshole nature. reply Many would even posit, taking this further, that if your assholehood is high, your confidence might just be a posture, or shakey, and your assertiveness an overcompensation.-
yungporko 2y ago
yes i think so, or at least it wouldn't have been impossible. i'm certain that it's possible to have extremely high standards without being a dick.
xboxnolifes 2y ago
Is there other examples other than Steve Jobs? It feels like he is the example brought up in any discussion about assholes, making him the exception, not the rule.

squigz 2y ago

> Steve Jobs was famously an asshole. Apple couldn't exist if every manager acted like him, but would it exist if he didn't? Is there any reason to believe it wouldn't?

kortilla 2y ago
Yes. That’s a completely different type of CEO. If he wasn’t an asshole he might have spent time with his daughter and maybe not came back to Apple at all when it was failing.
- hliyan 2y ago
  And maybe we would have a more diverse ecosystem of mobile platforms and companies today, although nothing quite as fancy as Apple's. Perhaps we also won't have hundreds, if not thousands of founders mistreating their employees under the delusion that they are fashioning themselves after Steve Jobs.
  - chuckadams 2y ago
    Yes, I'm sure it would be all sunshine and rainbows without the Great Fruit Satan around. The point is the company as it is today probably wouldn't exist.
    - squigz 2y ago
      The question is what evidence suggests that Jobs being an asshole led to Apple's success?
      - kortilla 2y ago
        There isn’t any. The only evidence is that everything about Steve Jobs, good and bad, produced the successful outcome. There is no reason to think fundamentally altering his personality and therefore the entire way he interacted with and ultimately selected leadership underneath him would not drastically change the outcome.
        squigz 2y ago
        Well I don't think it wouldn't change the outcome - I just don't agree that it would necessarily mean Apple would be less successful. In fact, I might argue it would probably have been more successful had he not been an asshole - because I don't see how his vision about technology was dependant on him being an asshole.
        kortilla 2y ago
        There are people that react well to pressure. All of his directs were made up of those kind of people. These people view a leader focused on being nice as “weak” or “lacking backbone” so they flounder and wash out of environments like that. There is no reason to think apple would be better if it was effectively run by entirely different leadership.
    - Bluestein 2y ago
      > The question is what evidence suggests that Jobs being an asshole led to Apple's success? Could this be measured?
BurningFrog 2y ago
Steve Jobs founded Apple, so my bet is it wouldn't have existed without him.
- squigz 2y ago
  Pedantry really has no place here. The question was whether Apple would exist as it is (i.e., as successful as it is) if Jobs were not an asshole. It was not whether it would exist at all if he didn't. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
saint_fiasco 2y ago
He ceased being the CEO for a while, and then he was CEO again. They had no choice the first time (he was the founder), but the second time they must have thought the risk and annoyance of having an asshole CEO were worth it.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  He was also CEO of NeXT and Pixar in between the Apple gigs.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Bluestein 2y ago

> but would it exist if he didn't? But was the rise of Apple contingent on Job's assholehood, itself? ... that is was his (documented) assholehood sine qua non?

hliyan 2y ago

Decency comes at a cost. I'm sure greater things could be achieved if we discard it (perhaps the Pyramids, the Taj Mahal and the Nazi science/tech accomplishments are examples).

Bluestein 2y ago
I get and respect your point, but ... ouch.-
JohnFen 2y ago
I think the thing that drives achievements is assertiveness and confidence. You can have those without having an asshole nature.
- Bluestein 2y ago
  > You can have those without having an asshole nature. reply Many would even posit, taking this further, that if your assholehood is high, your confidence might just be a posture, or shakey, and your assertiveness an overcompensation.-

yungporko 2y ago

yes i think so, or at least it wouldn't have been impossible. i'm certain that it's possible to have extremely high standards without being a dick.

xboxnolifes 2y ago

Is there other examples other than Steve Jobs? It feels like he is the example brought up in any discussion about assholes, making him the exception, not the rule.